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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sickened by Hamas

1000 replies

MindfullyAmazedHorse · 10/10/2023 22:08

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
DownNative · 11/10/2023 09:24

Coffeerum · 10/10/2023 22:30

@Catusrusty There is so much antisemitism dressed up in whataboutery on these threads about Israel.

Can you give an example of this? The only thing I’ve seen that is controversial to some is pointing out Israel’s actions and treatment of Gaza and Palestinian’s, which is not an antisemitic comment.

Mumsnet Moderation Team have had to delete threads and posts due to anti-semitism.

No-one will be able to give concrete examples now. You still see comments being deleted too.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:28

Why is debate always shut down by cries of antisemitism?

It is not. Antimitism is shut down by cries of antisemitism, which the people being antisemitic deflect with cries that they are being "shut down".

It is not antisemitic to see that there is fault on both sides in this conflict

No one has said that it is. Actually the people calling out the antisemitism have said that very clearly themselves. Several of them have criticised Israel themselves (including myself).

Antisemitism isn't a thought or a feeling. It is a clearly defined discrimination. We have the Jerusalem Declaration of 2008 which was put together very carefully by the world's top scholars on the middle east, discrimination, human rights etc.

It very specifically says criticism is fine, even robust criticism.

But it also outlines what is antisemitic, and those things have occurred several times on this thread. The people called out have been antisemitic and I have written a detailed explanation as to why.

If you think asking people to respect the Jerusalem Declaration is "stifling debate" then I'd ask why you feel debate can't be had without being antisemitic, because it can.

To go further, there is an updated definition of antisemitism from the IHRA. I haven't even worked off that because it goes much further, I have actually gone from the lowest possible bar there is. But let it be known the wording included on the IHRA definition is VERBATIM, the same as the wording on the Muslim Council's working definition of islamophobia.

You can criticise Hamas. You can't hold them up to different standard of any other country.

You can offer ideas for solutions, but you can't deny Palestinian people their human right of self determination and thriving in their own state.

EXACTLY THE SAME APPLIES TO JEWS!!!

Racists usually don't know they are being racist. Certainly I watched in awe as that couple with a pub full of Golliwogs claimed they were just "fun toys" and that her husband put on a Britain first tshirt because it was just accidentally lying around.

If you want to actually NOT be racist, read up what the guidelines are and just follow them! So simple!

soddingspiderseason · 11/10/2023 09:28

@StowOnTheWold

Yes, I agree. I've been utterly horrified by many posts on this thread but it does serve to show that despite unequivocal evidence of Hamas's atrocities, there are still the "yeah, but Israel" apologists willing to excuse their actions.

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 09:29

SurprisedWithAHorse · 11/10/2023 09:07

This is an outright lie that's so laughable we can ignore it. Who did you mean by "they" when you said this was "their usual tactic for shutting down criticism of Israel"?

Are you blind as well as a supporter of the oppressor?
I have posted previously to say 'they' meant the posters who kept crying antisemitism in the name of censorship of Palestinian genocide by Israel.

EasternStandard · 11/10/2023 09:30

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 09:29

Are you blind as well as a supporter of the oppressor?
I have posted previously to say 'they' meant the posters who kept crying antisemitism in the name of censorship of Palestinian genocide by Israel.

@Threemangoes do you accept the atrocities happened?

There are links below

unicornpower · 11/10/2023 09:32

YANBU. It’s utterly shocking and appalling and I’m embarrassed about the celebrations across UK cities. It is completely unjustifiable and I’m sick of reading the whataboutery across MN and social media. Where is the outcry? So many people who were SO vocal about BLM when George Floyd was murdered (understandably) have said NOTHING about the meaningless atrocities committed against women and children in Israel. Terrorism and terrorist sympathisers have no place in 2023. My heart breaks for all the innocent lives lost and those poor children (on both sides). Jewish children in the UK should NOT be scared to go to school. I’m never ceased by how rife antisemitism still is today, it would not be tolerated against anyone else, so why is it accepted?

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:34

StowOnTheWold · 11/10/2023 09:14

Of course it is.

And it is easy to understand why 4,000 peaceful festival goers less 260 now murdered may care a little less for their neighbours in Gaza than they did a week ago.

I wonder, for example, what must be going through the minds of those that are now captive in Gaza. Sympathy can wax and wane. You must understand that?

I just disagree with the notion that any ordinary person should be expected to pick a side and view this week as a totally isolated incident.

Toothyfruity · 11/10/2023 09:34

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:02

@itsmyp4rty

I guess when you treat people like animals then they start behaving like animals

No, they don't.

My family were treated like animals in the middle east, stripped of everything they owned, subjected to violent pogroms and subjugation that make what's happening to the Palestinians look a trip to Butlins . Those of my family who went to Europe mostly didn't survive the Holocast. We found records of two of our kin liberated from Dachau. The rest were gassed or put in ovens.

NO, being treated like animals doesn't make you behave like one.

I have no inclination of any kind to behead anyone, rape anyone, torture anyone or laugh about it. That's entirely a choice, and is not reflective of victimhood in any way.

Jews aside there are millions upon millions of people who have been subjected to the most hellish things imaginable and they are not strapping on suicide vests to their kids either.

Stop apologising for these people!

You might want to research how the IDF treats Palestinian civilians. It's fucked up.

Edited for typo

Itllbefine6 · 11/10/2023 09:36

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 09:23

If that’s what you have taken away from this post, then you clearly haven’t understood what the poster has said.

It was rather a long post, and I wasn't quite sure what the point was. Surely it's general knowledge that the Jews were persecuted in Europe? Perhaps it's the circles that I move in, but I actually hear far more about the suffering (oppression?) of the Palestinians than I do the Israeli side. The Palestinians have a lot of support from the left wing in Britain and America. There are posters on my local church noticeboard for organisations raising money to free Palestine. So, no, I don't agree that people in the West are ignorant of what is going on in Palestine, or that we just don't have 'balanced' reporting.

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/10/2023 09:36

You might want to research how the IDA treats Palestinian civilians. It's fucked up.

@LemonyTicket had a great deal more knowledge and insight about the region than you, she's the wrong person to be suggesting "research" to.

LumiB · 11/10/2023 09:36

It is barbaric on both sides imo. Nothing can justify either sides attacking, killing innocent people. This is the middle east though where barbaric acts like this have been going on for centuries.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:38

@Denis44

It’s quite a simplistic view written in a quite patronising tone. There are organisations like amnesty international who don’t agree with you. Can I ask what are your credentials?

My credentials are that I am an Iraqi Arab and a Jew and have lived in the middle east most of my life. I have a degree in theology with a specialism in Ancient Israel, and a Masters degree in Middle Eastern History. I have studied the topic for over 20 years.

What you're trying to do now is straw manning, because everything I wrote in my post is completely accurate. Pluck any line out of it you feel is not accurate and I will provide full citation for it.

As for Amnesty, they are an immensely biased organisation who released a statement yesterday more or less siding with Hamas so frankly I take them about as seriously as Mickey Mouse - but I think what you really mean is "Amnesty say mean things about Israel"

And yes, they do. Because like a lot of posters here, they are white, middle class do gooders who think they are siding with the underdog and it's fashionable to do so. What they can't do, as a charitable front is obfuscate the facts.

So along with their scathing reports on Israel's behavior they actually do have to report on Palestine's treatment of it's own citizens too. The latest one of those reports is below:

You can read the entire link, but here's a quote from the headline paragraph:

"Palestinian authorities in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip continued to heavily restrict freedom of expression, association and assembly. They also held scores of people in arbitrary detention and subjected many to torture and other ill-treatment. Justice for serious human rights violations remained elusive"

So they know Palestinian authorities are abusing the human rights of their own citizens, imprisoning them without trial, subjecting them to torture - but they stay pretty silent about it. Which says it all!

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/

Human rights in Palestine (State of)

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in Palestine (State of) with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of

SurprisedWithAHorse · 11/10/2023 09:40

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 09:29

Are you blind as well as a supporter of the oppressor?
I have posted previously to say 'they' meant the posters who kept crying antisemitism in the name of censorship of Palestinian genocide by Israel.

Really?

If I were responding to specific posters, I'd say so. I wouldn't go with a nebulous "they" that needed repeated pressing for clarification. Especially when what "they" were doing just so happened to be an antisemitic trope. Also, "their usual tactic" is a strange choice of words for a handful of posters on Mumsnet, don't you think?

You expect us to believe we haven't seen the videos we've seen that the terrorists took and posted themselves, frequently using their victims' own phones and social media. Do you expect us to believe this?

Syrupyslop · 11/10/2023 09:43

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:03

Goodness me. Sympathy for civilians on both sides is absolutely not the same as pro-hamas or anti Israel or antisemitism. It is perfectly possible to care about more than one group of innocents.

I'm not picking out you in particular @Oliotya but just that this post is one of a type I want to respond to.

Look, when there is an atrocity of the appalling scale of this one, involving the many, many acts of barbarity and deliberate cruelty, and Hamas and their supporters revelling in the cruelty and barbarity that we have seen here. and people respond with ' but well, it understandable and both sides' You are instantly introducing into the conversation the idea that there is some sort of justification and defence for this barbarity. And there isn't.

When you start saying ' but what about what has happened to this other group of people?' You introduce into the conversation the idea that we should shift our compassionate focus onto someone else instead. That the Jewish victims are somehow not quite as deserving of one's compassion as one might think

When you start starting saying ' well understandable and both sides and what about these other people' you are attempting to shift focus from the present victims of an appalling tragedy. When the humane response is to give unconditional support to those who are suffering. Can you really not see the inhumanity to the victims whose loved ones are murdered, tortured, raped and brutalised and missing, by this narrative of focus shifting and blame shifting?

Its cruel and its wrong.

LastTrainEast · 11/10/2023 09:43

Everyone will be pleased to hear that the beheading babies stories was fake news. The Israeli army confirms that and so do factcheck sites.

Anyone saying Hamas deserve what they get because of the story is reacting as intended.

How many other stories are lies too? There are many floating around. Be careful out there.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/10/11/western-media-fell-for-hamas-beheaded-babies-did-indian-media-report-it-too

Western media fell for ‘Hamas beheaded babies’. Did Indian media report it too?

The Israeli army later said it has ‘no information confirming allegations’.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/10/11/western-media-fell-for-hamas-beheaded-babies-did-indian-media-report-it-too

soddingspiderseason · 11/10/2023 09:45

LastTrainEast · 11/10/2023 09:43

Everyone will be pleased to hear that the beheading babies stories was fake news. The Israeli army confirms that and so do factcheck sites.

Anyone saying Hamas deserve what they get because of the story is reacting as intended.

How many other stories are lies too? There are many floating around. Be careful out there.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/10/11/western-media-fell-for-hamas-beheaded-babies-did-indian-media-report-it-too

Is the video footage taken by the Hamas terrorists also false? Inevitable that people would soon start to deny that these atrocities happened as it challenges the narrative about Hamas being "freedom fighters". They're not. They're Jihadi terrorists.

Itllbefine6 · 11/10/2023 09:47

LastTrainEast · 11/10/2023 09:43

Everyone will be pleased to hear that the beheading babies stories was fake news. The Israeli army confirms that and so do factcheck sites.

Anyone saying Hamas deserve what they get because of the story is reacting as intended.

How many other stories are lies too? There are many floating around. Be careful out there.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/10/11/western-media-fell-for-hamas-beheaded-babies-did-indian-media-report-it-too

Thank goodness for that! All they've done is murder a whole lot of people at a music festival and kidnap a number of people. They didn't behead babies. We can all stop being upset now.

Givemepeas · 11/10/2023 09:48

‘don’t blame the IDF for their reaction. I believe that as well as targeting Hamas terrorists they have tried to help Palestinian civilians too.’

if you believe that the you really are ill-informed.
Taking revenge for the killing of innocents by slaughter more innocents really is appalling.

Givemepeas · 11/10/2023 09:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DownNative · 11/10/2023 09:51

fillgap10 · 11/10/2023 01:03

No, what you said doesn't ring true, if by 'leftist' you mean anyone left of Kier Starmer. I know people who are hard hard Left and I don't know anyone who argued the terrorist attack in Manchester was justified, or the actions of the scumbags Hamas was justified.

Plenty of academics, strategists and political analysts aren't surprised the slaughter by Isreal and America on the Arab world breeds terrorism.

The treatment of Catholics by the British bred the IRA, the IRA are scumbags and no-one thought their murders were justifified, but anyone with a brain can hardly be surprised.

It's historical revisionism to claim "The treatment of Catholics by the British bred the IRA".

From 1920s onwards, the IRA didn't exist due to treatment of Catholics. They existed BECAUSE partition was a reality and they believed they had a right to use terrorism to reverse it.

The IRA split into the Official IRA and Provisional IRA precisely because the PIRA wanted to openly target civilians whereas the OIRA did not. They were known as Red IRA v Green IRA.

At no stage was PIRA interested in civil rights or a political solution until defeated in the 1990s.

The SDLP and John Hume fully blamed PIRA for the problems Catholics faced as well. He said very publicly that PSF/PIRA had "all the hallmarks of undiluted fascism" and that the scapegoat is evidence of that to which he added rather sarcastically aiming at PIRA claims the "Brits are to blame for everything...even their (PIRA) own atrocities!"

Hume ended his withering condemnation of PIRA with;

"There is not a single injustice in Northern Ireland today that justifies the taking of a single human life. If I were to lead a civil rights campaign, the major target of that campaign would be the IRA."

And:

"The greatest injustice in the north of Ireland today is acts committed by paramilitary organisations like the IRA. The taking of human life is the greatest injustice.

Other injustices can be corrected. People can come out of prison, but people cannot come out of their graves."

- John Hume

PIRA did not arise out of civil rights concerns at all OR treatment of Catholics. Sure, PIRA didn't care as they beat, kneecapped, intimidated, evicted, exiled and murdered Catholics too. So much for the idea that "The treatment of Catholics by the British bred the IRA".

The same kind of argument applies to Hamas who also don't care about Palestinian civilians.

Indeed, PIRA and Hamas trained at the same training camps in Libya under Gaddafi. PIRA are also linked to other terrorist groups such as Mandela's MK, ETA in Spain and FARC-EP in Colombia. Its a wider international terrorist network so their supporters still support each other. Provisional Sinn Féin is in a very sticky spot right now too as a result.

Images attached are from NICRA, 1967 poll 1998 poll, account of Republican violence in post-partition ROI and PIRAs Martin O'Hagan who said he didn't need civil rights.

To be sickened by Hamas
To be sickened by Hamas
To be sickened by Hamas
To be sickened by Hamas
To be sickened by Hamas
Pollyputhekettleon · 11/10/2023 09:52

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 09:16

The thread presented the possibility of a reasoned debate - as did the numerous others that were started. One by one they’re being deleted. It seems that anyone who advocates for the Palestinians for whatever reason is immediately accused of anti semitism and terrorist apology. Once again reasoned debate is being shut down and anyone with a different point of view is bullied off the thread. I don’t see that it’s serving any useful purpose any more to be honest. No one is learning anything about the pov of either side because we’re too busy shouting each other down.

I was responding to the specific claim of the poster I responded to. I despise censorship and have been given out to many times for whining about it. Your argument is not with me.

CaroleSinger · 11/10/2023 09:52

CwmYoy · 11/10/2023 09:00

I have difficulty summoning up sympathy for people who elect terrorists as their leaders.

Therein lies the problem. There have been no democratic elections since 2006.

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:52

Syrupyslop · 11/10/2023 09:43

I'm not picking out you in particular @Oliotya but just that this post is one of a type I want to respond to.

Look, when there is an atrocity of the appalling scale of this one, involving the many, many acts of barbarity and deliberate cruelty, and Hamas and their supporters revelling in the cruelty and barbarity that we have seen here. and people respond with ' but well, it understandable and both sides' You are instantly introducing into the conversation the idea that there is some sort of justification and defence for this barbarity. And there isn't.

When you start saying ' but what about what has happened to this other group of people?' You introduce into the conversation the idea that we should shift our compassionate focus onto someone else instead. That the Jewish victims are somehow not quite as deserving of one's compassion as one might think

When you start starting saying ' well understandable and both sides and what about these other people' you are attempting to shift focus from the present victims of an appalling tragedy. When the humane response is to give unconditional support to those who are suffering. Can you really not see the inhumanity to the victims whose loved ones are murdered, tortured, raped and brutalised and missing, by this narrative of focus shifting and blame shifting?

Its cruel and its wrong.

I do give unconditional support to those who are suffering. All of them. Hamas and global politics is where blame lies, I point fingers at any and all agressors. I don't feel a need to choose between which atrocities I care about.

EasternStandard · 11/10/2023 09:54

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 09:16

Trigger warning

Trigger warning

Trigger warning

Just to counter this blatant horrendous lie told by @Threemangoes

No one who knows the reality already should click on any of these links.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1712003919520382981

https://x.com/DaveAtherton20/status/1711666560547381255?s=20

https://x.com/General_Somto/status/1710632014175461420?s=20

https://x.com/TheTankGuns/status/1710694497389093359?s=20

x.com/EylonALevy/status/1711701442371674161?s=20

@Givemepeas have you watched these, what does it show?

Dulra · 11/10/2023 09:56

Syrupyslop · 11/10/2023 09:43

I'm not picking out you in particular @Oliotya but just that this post is one of a type I want to respond to.

Look, when there is an atrocity of the appalling scale of this one, involving the many, many acts of barbarity and deliberate cruelty, and Hamas and their supporters revelling in the cruelty and barbarity that we have seen here. and people respond with ' but well, it understandable and both sides' You are instantly introducing into the conversation the idea that there is some sort of justification and defence for this barbarity. And there isn't.

When you start saying ' but what about what has happened to this other group of people?' You introduce into the conversation the idea that we should shift our compassionate focus onto someone else instead. That the Jewish victims are somehow not quite as deserving of one's compassion as one might think

When you start starting saying ' well understandable and both sides and what about these other people' you are attempting to shift focus from the present victims of an appalling tragedy. When the humane response is to give unconditional support to those who are suffering. Can you really not see the inhumanity to the victims whose loved ones are murdered, tortured, raped and brutalised and missing, by this narrative of focus shifting and blame shifting?

Its cruel and its wrong.

I have to completely disagree with you here. @Oliotya point stands IMO. Innocent civilians being killed are where my sympathies lie and it is cruel and wrong no matter who is doing the killing. I was absolutely shocked and slickened with what Hamas did but we barely had time to process what happened before we were viewing images of the retaliation.

When you start starting saying ' well understandable and both sides and what about these other people' you are attempting to shift focus from the present victims of an appalling tragedy.
The present victims of the tragedy are on both sides though? It is Wednesday the initial terrorist attack happened on Saturday, retaliation was rapid and now Palestinians are also counting their dead all innocent victims all people we should be allowed have sympathy for

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