Page 28 | Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

Lieblingsessen · 2023-10-09T18:19:49+00:00

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval. Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

DrSusanCalvin · 10/10/2023 12:50

When I saw the thread title I was reminded of Oradour and Lidice.

Candlelight34 · 10/10/2023 12:51

UniCred1 · 10/10/2023 10:55

Would you split your assets with the burglar who raided your house, asked to be your housemate then now thinks you should stay in the shed? And of course he should be monitoring your every single move and can stop you bringing food if he likes?

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Of course not.

That is clearly un just and unfair.

The illegal occupations need to be addressed as part of the peace agreement.

This needs to be resolved.

Humanity and peace is only way forward.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 12:52

AJ+ is part of the Al Jazeera network. Aka owned by the state of Quatar.

Quatar happens to support Hamas and is a major financial backer.

It is a very interesting video IIRC.
But we should not fool ourselves and pretend that a media outled owned by a state who happens to be one of Hamas´ key allies will try to give a balanced point of view.

DemBonesDemBones · 10/10/2023 12:53

@topnoddy you can never say that out loud, no. Desperate people do desperate things. This is far from the first time basic necessities have been denied.

ElleMD80 · 10/10/2023 12:55

You are not unreasonable, however the majority of aid was already seized by Hamas and sold at inflated prices. Hamas already kept ‘their’ people in inhuman conditions. That is what you get for fighting for an insane glory of God and not fighting for your people. Continuing aid only helps Hamas.

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 12:59

ElleMD80 · 10/10/2023 12:55

You are not unreasonable, however the majority of aid was already seized by Hamas and sold at inflated prices. Hamas already kept ‘their’ people in inhuman conditions. That is what you get for fighting for an insane glory of God and not fighting for your people. Continuing aid only helps Hamas.

This is a factor. The aid goes to fighting

SequentialAnalyst · 10/10/2023 13:00

I remember the dead of the Holocaust.

I recently saw a programme about the US tightening the immigration rules until they squeaked to prevent Jews fleeing there from Germany before the war. Despite US Jews with relatives in Germany, and some newspapers, pleading for the US not to ignore the terrible evidence emerging from Germany.

Am I remembering them for nothing? Must the abused inevitably become the abusers? How will this cycle stop? This conflict in the Middle East, and some of its individual battles, are recorded in the Old Testament. How much longer?

BigBillyButterBollocks · 10/10/2023 13:00

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 09:00

No, it's not.

Israel has not declared war against the West Bank. Hamas was responsible for the horrific massacres at the weekend. Nothing to do with the West Bank.

Stop lying.

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Israel is illegally occupaying parts of the west bank. Stealing land, homes, occupying the land and taking away the Palestinians basic rights and freedoms is as good as war...

So yes, Israel is raging war against the West Bank... Has been for years to the spund of crickets from the international community.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:10

Candlelight34 · 10/10/2023 12:51

Of course not.

That is clearly un just and unfair.

The illegal occupations need to be addressed as part of the peace agreement.

This needs to be resolved.

Humanity and peace is only way forward.

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This is so naive. It's not as easy as splitting up a household.

Let's deal with the obvious. Both sides think Temple Mount / Haram Al Sharif belongs to them. Both sides claim all of Jerusalem.

Many large Arab communities are in post 1948 Israel, and, and over a million of Jews live in post 1948 Jordan.

Millions of Palestinians claim a right of return to their ancestral home in post 1948 Israel, which Israel rejects.

Last time Israel returned land to the Palestinian Authority it fell into the hands of Hamas and became an exporter of missiles and rapists. We're extremely nervous to repeat the exercise so close to Tel Aviv. And last time we held peace talks with the Palestinians, they walked away because they thought they could get a better deal by starting the second Intifada.

I'm sure the Palestinians don't trust us either one little bit. We've not honoured the obligations of the Oslo accords. The settlements have grown.

It really isn't easy.

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 13:11

Givemepeas · 10/10/2023 08:58

Instead of Israel shouting about why they should give fuel, water food etc to Gaza when they are at ‘war’ perhaps they should be explaining why Gaza civilians are so dependent on basic life necessities from Israel in the first place.

I don’t think most Israelis have any clue about how different their lives to those of the Palestinians- to me the fact that a rave full of partying young Israelis was being held so close to Gaza, where the young people live in appalling conditions is a stark reminder of those differences.

and now 100s of young people in both sides are dead, and even more will die if this continues much longer.

Yes. I don't agree revenge is the best tactic at all. I think Israel itself should be secured and they should move swiftly towards ceasefire and negotiations, with some international help. Get some of their hostages back, give them some of the Palestinian women or children being held in Israeli military prisons. What is the use of killing innocent people and their own people trapped inside there - it won't bring anyone back. I understand their rage, but their own side has killed many more Palestinian children already - they don't need to get even. They are in the lead already.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:14

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 13:11

Yes. I don't agree revenge is the best tactic at all. I think Israel itself should be secured and they should move swiftly towards ceasefire and negotiations, with some international help. Get some of their hostages back, give them some of the Palestinian women or children being held in Israeli military prisons. What is the use of killing innocent people and their own people trapped inside there - it won't bring anyone back. I understand their rage, but their own side has killed many more Palestinian children already - they don't need to get even. They are in the lead already.

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The goal of our military operation is to change the government of Gaza, not to exact revenge from the people.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 10/10/2023 13:16

Noname99 · 10/10/2023 11:37

The same reason that multiple posters in this thread continue to state that a country that has two borders with two different countries can be ‘under siege /blockade’ by just one. Whilst they pretend this is the case, they can continue with the anti-semitism unchallenged. Not one of the pro-Palestinian posters has yet directly answered the question why haven’t Gaza’s Arabic /Islamic neighbours ever fully opened their boarder with them? And even more so now in these desperate times, Egypt still won’t fully open their border? Wonder why that is? Somehow that will be the Israelis fault too.

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I thought Egypt had said they wouldn't do that as there was too much of a risk that Hamas terrorists could slip into the country?

Apparently Hamas, with their goal of killing every Jew, are too dangerous to be permitted into a Muslim majority country but, a Jewish majority country is expected to facilitate their free movement.

TheresaOfAvila · 10/10/2023 13:18

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:14

The goal of our military operation is to change the government of Gaza, not to exact revenge from the people.

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That’s not what the head of your government says.

No one thinks anyone will be deradicalised through starvation. Not even you.

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 13:18

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:14

The goal of our military operation is to change the government of Gaza, not to exact revenge from the people.

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Can you see an obvious successor to Hamas?

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 13:19

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:14

The goal of our military operation is to change the government of Gaza, not to exact revenge from the people.

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That's not what Netanyahu with his talk of 'mighty vengeance' says.

BigBillyButterBollocks · 10/10/2023 13:19

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 10:36

To all the Palestinian posters with family and friends or just coreligionists who will be seeing the airstrikes and the victims being pulled out lifeless from the rubble. This must be heart breaking for you.

I know it won't help but it is never our air force's intention to kill civilians; however I accept these deaths are an inevitable result of our chosen approach to risk.

We are doing this for our own security and freedom and for our children.

We have more allies, a bigger army, better weapons, a better developed industrial base, and more ammunition, and we have no intention of abandoning those advantages and 'fighting fairly' without air support and artillery support, against prepared defences and tunnels. Many of the 30-35 year old reservists, the fathers of young children, will be fighting within Gaza in the next few weeks and we want them to come back home to their families alive and well. Frankly, their safety will be prioritised to the extent possible over the safety of the local residents.

We will fight in accordance with the rules and customs of war.

There is no point apologising and indeed it is insulting to do so, because we are going to carry on doing this until Hamas is removed from government, even if we lose thousands of our own in the process. Unfortunately it really is likely going to get much, much worse. I take zero pleasure in that prospect.

Please don't take out your anger on Jews in the UK. It doesn't help the Palestinian people.

Can you explain to the Palestinians in a patronising tone why "we"are occupying the west bank, and making them live in subhuman condition in a state of Apartheid?

Why "we" stole their home, beating and killnng them in the process?

Are "we" blaming it on Hamas and being "sorry, not sorry, no choicy" or are "we" just pretending it is not happening?

Candlelight34 · 10/10/2023 13:20

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 13:10

This is so naive. It's not as easy as splitting up a household.

Let's deal with the obvious. Both sides think Temple Mount / Haram Al Sharif belongs to them. Both sides claim all of Jerusalem.

Many large Arab communities are in post 1948 Israel, and, and over a million of Jews live in post 1948 Jordan.

Millions of Palestinians claim a right of return to their ancestral home in post 1948 Israel, which Israel rejects.

Last time Israel returned land to the Palestinian Authority it fell into the hands of Hamas and became an exporter of missiles and rapists. We're extremely nervous to repeat the exercise so close to Tel Aviv. And last time we held peace talks with the Palestinians, they walked away because they thought they could get a better deal by starting the second Intifada.

I'm sure the Palestinians don't trust us either one little bit. We've not honoured the obligations of the Oslo accords. The settlements have grown.

It really isn't easy.

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The answer is not the kiling of civillians and brutality.
Yes, all have a claim but peace must be attempted.

The answer is not killing.

No god would endorse this.

Sometimes you have to simplify the situation to see how crazy and unnecessary it is.

I am not being naive.

What is a life if it is lived in fear.

Worddance · 10/10/2023 13:22

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:57

It would be 'best if I didn't have a voice', would it?

Well that's chilling. And revealing.

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Yes, it would be best if voices implying that Palestinian children are monsters were silent. Of course. The idea that rhetoric should have a voice is also chilling.

Efacsen · 10/10/2023 13:23

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 13:18

Can you see an obvious successor to Hamas?

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Removing Saddam Hussein didn't work so well did it - thereby creating ISIS

This poster makes lots of naive posts she was saying earlier that Egypt should deal with Israels Hamas problem

Worddance · 10/10/2023 13:26

Yalta · 10/10/2023 12:05

TheresaOfAvila

I think he wants them to leave via the humanitarian corridor that he’s bombing. Everywhere else is blockaded. What do you think you would do in that situation

Exactly what my father and his family did when Hitler was driving into Vienna being feted by Austrian lining the streets and cheering. Grabbed anything that was small and valuable and left.
Netanyahu gave a warning and a window of opportunity to leave. The bombing didn’t start immediately.

FWIW I collected families passports and important documents on Sunday after witnessing what was happening in London. I don’t feel safe living here. The view on this thread alone shows what I always feared.
Posters who would normally espouse that there was no excuse for rape and murder coming up with excuses for rape and murder because the victims are Jewish

So you are happy for what happened to your family to now happen to innocent Palestinian families?

How will you feel when the world sympathises with their plight? Or are we not allowed to feel sympathy?

Worddance · 10/10/2023 13:28

russetapple · 10/10/2023 12:12

You are judging Israel by standards which you would not use for any other country. This is a classic anti-semitic trope. Why do you expect Israel to have a responsibility toward a country that is trying to wipe it off the map? Did we send food and aid to Germany during the War?
Hamas are in Gaza. Hence why they need to attack Gaza and prevent supplies from getting there. They've told civilisians to try and leave, they can't do any more. Hamas has done this to its own people.

They've told civilians to try and leave? As if that's the sum total of what they need to do?

Disgusting.

SinkingSilently · 10/10/2023 13:31

Yalta · 10/10/2023 12:05

TheresaOfAvila

I think he wants them to leave via the humanitarian corridor that he’s bombing. Everywhere else is blockaded. What do you think you would do in that situation

Exactly what my father and his family did when Hitler was driving into Vienna being feted by Austrian lining the streets and cheering. Grabbed anything that was small and valuable and left.
Netanyahu gave a warning and a window of opportunity to leave. The bombing didn’t start immediately.

FWIW I collected families passports and important documents on Sunday after witnessing what was happening in London. I don’t feel safe living here. The view on this thread alone shows what I always feared.
Posters who would normally espouse that there was no excuse for rape and murder coming up with excuses for rape and murder because the victims are Jewish

That’s terrible that you feel the need to flee. A school round here has told its Jewish kids they don’t need to wear their Jewish School logo blazer if they don’t feel comfortable to.

Already synagogues here have security. I was shocked at the first (of many) bar/bar mitzvahs I attended that they had to have strict security on the door.

I don’t think many people know that Jewish people in the UK already live with a high degree of vigilance/security for fear of attack.

I hope you feel safe, wherever you end up.

CanNeverThinkOfAName · 10/10/2023 13:32

^*The answer is not the kiling of civillians and brutality.
Yes, all have a claim but peace must be attempted.

The answer is not killing.

No god would endorse this.

Sometimes you have to simplify the situation to see how crazy and unnecessary it is.

I am not being naive.

What is a life if it is lived in fear.*^

@Candlelight34 Hamas don't want peace which has been offered numerous times. They want to wipe Israel off the map and kill by all Jews. The Palestinian people elected them as their government and are cheering for their savagery in the streets. Palestinian children are being held aloft toting machine guns.

Do you think Jews, arguably the most persecuted people in earth, deserve to live in fear of child suicide bombers and rocket attacks?

BigBillyButterBollocks · 10/10/2023 13:34

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 11:10

Would you like a sit down heart to heart kumbya session with Jihadi John and his Caliphate to convince them of the error of their ways?

There's no doubt that political grievances fuel terrorism. When terrorists take over a state the results are so intolerable that war is the inevitable and natural and often decisive result.

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Why are you trying to makes Hamas look like an islamist organisation when they are an anti Israeli (terrorist) organisation?

Why try to make the situation a "Israel against Islamists" when it is a situation of "Israel against people who chose terrorism to fight against the apartheid state of Israel".

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 13:35

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 13:11

Yes. I don't agree revenge is the best tactic at all. I think Israel itself should be secured and they should move swiftly towards ceasefire and negotiations, with some international help. Get some of their hostages back, give them some of the Palestinian women or children being held in Israeli military prisons. What is the use of killing innocent people and their own people trapped inside there - it won't bring anyone back. I understand their rage, but their own side has killed many more Palestinian children already - they don't need to get even. They are in the lead already.

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Some hostages?

It took the exchange of over 1000 Palestinian prisoners to secure the release of Gilad Shalit, one single Israeli hostage. 280 of these served life sentences for planning and perpetrating various terror attacks against Israeli targets

Now let´s consider the scale/ratio: over 1000 for 1 person.

But there are currently less than 6000 Palestinians in Israel custody (according to Al Jazeera, which is owned by Quatar, an ally and supporter of Hamas. Therefore very unlikely to keep these numbers artifcially low).

Going by tthis previous exchange it is therefore very obvious that there are not enough Palestinians in Israeli custody to barter a trade for all the people taken hostage by Hamas..

I suppose that is due to the fact that Israel won´t just walk into Palestinian areas to abduct as many Palestinians as Hamas will deem necessary for a hostage exchange.

there is also the issue that Hamas´ primary interest won´t be an exchange of wrongly convicted and or detained civlians. They will want their fighters returned.