Page 22 | Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

Lieblingsessen · 2023-10-09T18:19:49+00:00

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval. Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

Worddance · 10/10/2023 08:51

Livelovebehappy · 09/10/2023 19:48

Honestly, you can’t blame Israel for retaliating like this. When you read of the heartbreaking executions Hamas have carried out on Israeli families, they have to protect their people, which calls for harsh measures. There was a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians prior to this, and Israel had to toe the line. But now Hamas have played right into their hands, because the sympathy has now gone on the back of their savagery, and Israel have the green light to do what they have to do.

It's not a question of blame. It's a question of whether one atrocity justifies another. It doesn't.

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 08:51

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:47

Well I wouldn't obviously but it is a symbol of how one people are treating another. Some Israeli people view Palestinians as inferior so will treat mosques etc with disrespect. I am not saying I would do it but there is only so far you can treat others with contempt before there is a fight back. I am not sure why Israelis are so surprised?

Show quote history

Bet your bottom dollar the security services knew weapons were stored in that particular mosque. That’s not very respectful either.

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:51

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:17

Explain? It's exactly the same. International powers backing a land grab from native peoples who don't have the power (or international recognition) to resist.

Show quote history

Because there is a very different history in the Middle East? Like it or not, the region of Palestine was always part of one empire or another, since antiquity. And the proposal in 1948, which the Israelis accepted, would have created a Palestinian state in just under half the territory.

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:51

Ironic that many in the US funded the IRA yet decry attempts from Palestinian people to reclaim land and live peacefully. They were not bothered about innocent British people dying.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 08:52

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:31

I can't say I am surprised at the actions of Hamas if the Israeli government allowed the mosque in Jerusalem to be disrespected. They need to crack down on that. Plus spitting at Christian's by some Jews. You can't then wonder at resentment caused by this.

Well you just arguably disrespected my temple in Jerusalem by calling it a mosque. But I'm not going to murder your children for it Ariana Grande style.

This is such a mindless thought I can't even be offended by it.

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:53

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 08:51

Bet your bottom dollar the security services knew weapons were stored in that particular mosque. That’s not very respectful either.

Show quote history

It was Orthodox Jews or at least extremist Jews.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:53

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:47

Well I wouldn't obviously but it is a symbol of how one people are treating another. Some Israeli people view Palestinians as inferior so will treat mosques etc with disrespect. I am not saying I would do it but there is only so far you can treat others with contempt before there is a fight back. I am not sure why Israelis are so surprised?

Show quote history

And some Palestinians view Jews as inferior so will treat synagogues with disrespect - like the one devastated by Hamas terrorists at the weekend in southern Israel.

Or like the way Jews (and Christians) were literally treated as second-class citizens, 'dhimmis', across the Muslim world before the existence of the state of Israel.

Can't wait to hear you explain that this therefore justifies the Israelis 'fighting back' against the Palestinians.

Coming, 1,2, 3...

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:54

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 08:28

Do you not agree with the state of Israel existing at all?

Show quote history

As far as I can tell, no.

Worddance · 10/10/2023 08:55

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:46

It has nothing to do with revenge or 'an eye for an eye'.

It has to do with safety.

Up to now, despite the Hamas founding charter explicitly calling for the global genocide of all Jews, despite the numerous devastating suicide bombings, massacres, knifings etc over many years, by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups, Israelis have clung to the hope that a two-state solution next door to Hamas was possible, that a peaceful compromise could be reached.

The events of last weekend showed beyond any reasonable doubt that that hope was a lie. That there never was and never can be 'peace' with monsters who make complex, long-term plans to rape and murder your teens, behead your babies, murder your grandparents and live stream the murder on the grandmother's own Facebook page so her granddaughter could see it, take whole families hostage, torture and execute your soldiers, set fire to people's homes with them in it, etc. We would never consider having ISIS living next door. And no fucking way would we consider it out moral duty to feed, water and medicate them while they continue to try to murder all of us in the most horrific ways. 😡

Israelis are entitled to live in peace. They are entitled to safety. If Hamas desires Jewish genocide above all else, above the lives of their own people, if Hamas chooses to stockpile only rockets and not food, If they choose to build terror tunnels not water desalination plants, in nearly 20 years of ruling over Gaza, that is absolutely on them, NOT on Israel.

Israeli lives are not worth less than Palestinian lives. Israelis are not required to support those who would kill them, who are actively trying to kill them. Self-defence is not only valid in law, it is an important moral principle. And those demanding Israelis risk their own safety to support their would-be murderers are the immoral ones. 😡

Show quote history

Please don't conflate Hamas with the people of Palestine. Palestinians are not monsters. If you can't correct this, it would be best if you don't have a voice as it's incredibly dangerous and damaging to talk like this.

zendeveloper · 10/10/2023 08:56

VisaWoes · 10/10/2023 08:51

And this is the issue, colonial Britain comes along and offers the land to people when really wtf what Britain doing there? What gave Britain the right to decide who gets what?

I believe the Palestine people were unhappy with the proposal because they were the majority inhabitant population but were offered a much smaller percentage of land.

So if 80% of the population gets offered 20% of the land they’re not going to be happy. (percentages may not be accurate)

so why was a fairer share not proposed?

Show quote history

But your percentages are indeed not accurate. "Israel" was indeed given slightly over the half of the territory, but most of that was emptly desert (thus the kibbutz culture, that at its core originates from turning these deserted and salinated lands into a prosperous agricultural communities). It was not Britain deciding, but the UN collegially (including Arab states at the time). The question of "unfair" split has been not tabled - no one wanted areas like Negev and similar, what to do with it!

There is a discussion to be had here, of course, but honestly, people need to learn some facts first.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:56

And on the subject of treating mosques with disrespect, take it you've seen the footage of Al-Aqsa being used to store weapons? And of men playing football in it?

Doesn't look very respectful to me.

But no fun pointing it out when you can't blame the Joos, eh?

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:57

Worddance · 10/10/2023 08:55

Please don't conflate Hamas with the people of Palestine. Palestinians are not monsters. If you can't correct this, it would be best if you don't have a voice as it's incredibly dangerous and damaging to talk like this.

Show quote history

It would be 'best if I didn't have a voice', would it?

Well that's chilling. And revealing.

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:57

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 08:52

Well you just arguably disrespected my temple in Jerusalem by calling it a mosque. But I'm not going to murder your children for it Ariana Grande style.

This is such a mindless thought I can't even be offended by it.

Show quote history

Eh? There is a mosque in Jerusalem as well as churches. Jerusalem is shared by the three faiths unless you think it is for Jews only. There have been reports of Israeli individuals doing this albeit the extreme type. I don't condone the violence but why be surprised if you get some retaliation if you treat your neighbours like subhuman? This puzzles me about the Israeli government!

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:58

@VisaWoes

If a colonial power offering you a state were the problem, then why would you not just refuse it for yourself, on principle. Why would it bother you that another group is willing to take the offer?

Hang on a minute, if you don't know what proportions were offered to each, and what their proportions of the population was, each time the offer was made, why do you believe that was the issue? How could you know that the % split was their problem but not have looked into whether that was a reasonable objection or not? And be able to tell the rest of us?

And are you really claiming that the centuries of dhimmitude had no influence on Arab attitudes to the Jews getting to govern themselves, and on what they viewed as Islamic land by conquest? That would be an extraordinary claim.

Did the Arabs know why the Jews wanted their own state? I presume they did.

Givemepeas · 10/10/2023 08:58

Instead of Israel shouting about why they should give fuel, water food etc to Gaza when they are at ‘war’ perhaps they should be explaining why Gaza civilians are so dependent on basic life necessities from Israel in the first place.

I don’t think most Israelis have any clue about how different their lives to those of the Palestinians- to me the fact that a rave full of partying young Israelis was being held so close to Gaza, where the young people live in appalling conditions is a stark reminder of those differences.

and now 100s of young people in both sides are dead, and even more will die if this continues much longer.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 09:00

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:28

There are settlers in the West Bank: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/israeli-settler-violence-in-west-bank-escalates-huwara

It's all part of the same situation.

No, it's not.

Israel has not declared war against the West Bank. Hamas was responsible for the horrific massacres at the weekend. Nothing to do with the West Bank.

Stop lying.

BBno4 · 10/10/2023 09:00

https://x.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1711320603628884106?s=20

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 09:02

Document · 10/10/2023 07:41

The lives of poor brown people are worth less than white ones. It has always been the case and always will.

If only there was a word we could throw around when people speak against the brown people of Palestine…

How much was the life of the migrant Thai farm worker worth? They were screaming at him for being a 'yahud' as they stoved in his skull with a spade and filmed it.

He may not have been a Jew but he died like one. Rest in eternal peace.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 09:04

ginandtonicwithlimes · 10/10/2023 08:57

Eh? There is a mosque in Jerusalem as well as churches. Jerusalem is shared by the three faiths unless you think it is for Jews only. There have been reports of Israeli individuals doing this albeit the extreme type. I don't condone the violence but why be surprised if you get some retaliation if you treat your neighbours like subhuman? This puzzles me about the Israeli government!

Show quote history

why be surprised if you get some retaliation if you treat your neighbours like subhuman?

Can I quote you on that? When Israelis react to Hamas's massacre of their citizens last weekend?

Good to hear you think that justifies any 'retaliation' that Israelis may feel minded to do.

Or was it a 'for me but not for thee' kind of retaliation only that you had in mind??

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 09:04

Givemepeas · 10/10/2023 08:58

Instead of Israel shouting about why they should give fuel, water food etc to Gaza when they are at ‘war’ perhaps they should be explaining why Gaza civilians are so dependent on basic life necessities from Israel in the first place.

I don’t think most Israelis have any clue about how different their lives to those of the Palestinians- to me the fact that a rave full of partying young Israelis was being held so close to Gaza, where the young people live in appalling conditions is a stark reminder of those differences.

and now 100s of young people in both sides are dead, and even more will die if this continues much longer.

How about Hamas, they have funding

Is it put into Gaza or recruitment and fighting

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 09:09

and now 100s of young people in both sides are dead, and even more will die if this continues much longer.

Hamas are terminal. This is why they need eradicating.

DownNative · 10/10/2023 09:13

Mumsanetta · 09/10/2023 19:23

I agree, imagine the outcry if the US or UK did this.

Did you learn about Allied blockades during WW2?

Howpo · 10/10/2023 09:17

StowOnTheWold · 10/10/2023 09:09

and now 100s of young people in both sides are dead, and even more will die if this continues much longer.

Hamas are terminal. This is why they need eradicating.

They will be replaced, as previous Palestine organisations have been.

SinkingSilently · 10/10/2023 09:19

Howpo · 10/10/2023 09:17

They will be replaced, as previous Palestine organisations have been.

Show quote history

This is true. Imagine what hell could/will rise from the ashes of Hamas. Especially in the context of a high Palestinian death toll. it’s so depressing. This is never going to end is it.

HikingforScenery · 10/10/2023 09:23

That person showing the swastika must be the super ignorant. She looks black to me and would’ve been a target of the nazis for dehumanisation, experimentation and murder. Even if one is the least empathetic person, surely some empathy is reserved for oneself, and people who is similar? Stupidity in action.