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Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

1000 replies

Lieblingsessen · 09/10/2023 19:19

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

OP posts:
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20
Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:04

Maireas · 10/10/2023 07:47

What about the brown people of Israel?
This is so simplistic. Look up Mizrahis. Also Arab Israelis.

And Ethiopian Jews.

Presumably this poster thinks the fact they're Jewish automatically makes them 'white'.

Hmm
Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:05

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:03

Oh I didn't know those living in the intended Jewish territory would have been allowed to remain as full citizens. A delightful racism-shrieker earlier in the thread told me they'd have been losing their homeland and society if they had agreed to the two-state solution back in the 1930's. So they wouldn't have? Those who found themselves inside it could have stayed where they were and been equal citizens? So was their problem that it would have been a majority Jewish state and they didn't want Jews ruling either them or what they viewed as Islamic land?

Yes.

Efacsen · 10/10/2023 08:05

It shouldn't be forgotten that Egypt is also blockading Gaza too

This isn't true

Yesterday Israeli fighter planes bombed the Rafah Border Crossing - that's why it's closed ATM

@Howpo

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:05

@Noicant

'when Britain suffers a terrorist attack I don’t hear so many voices suggesting we should be understanding and concerned (and the subtext, you deserve it).'

In fairness, that is said, and plenty, each time Europeans are attacked by jihadists. You must have the blessing of not coming across too many leftists!

VisaWoes · 10/10/2023 08:05

I’d like to think people had moved on from the tactics of the napoleonic wars or even some of the more civilian focused practices of the world wars and that instead there could be more targeted fighting which doesn’t harm children. Just because the U.K. did something 300 years ago doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.

Alargeoneplease89 · 10/10/2023 08:07

Yalta · 10/10/2023 02:55

Whilst posters are saying that Hamas are separate from Palestine and the Palestinian people don’t support Hamas.
Could someone explain the scenes involving Palestinians celebrating the attack if they don’t agree with what Hamas did.

They will say its propaganda and never happened the same as the teens at the music festival are soldiers. You can't argue with idiots.

Egypt border Gaza, why aren't they doing more?

The while thing is beyond ridiculous for something that boils down to not being real (religion).

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:07

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:01

I have great sympathy with the Jewish people, especially after the horrors of the Second World War. But two wrongs don't make a right. The Israel situation is a real mess and I don't know what the answer is. Collective punishment against civilians - half of whom are children - is not going to make things better. Netanyahu wants to send out a message that the Arabs will remember for generations. And he might - but in a way that will rebound horribly on Israel.

Well, that's good. Perhaps you could extend your sympathy as far as not twisting and misrepresenting a nation that was founded with international support and immediately attacked.

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:08

@Mustardseed86 And would they have been given compensation for their land, or been able to sell it at market value, to Jews, if they didn't want to be ruled by former dhimmis/people of a different religion? If they wanted to move to the Arab, as in muslim, territory? I can understand wanting your government to implement laws consistent with/deriving from your religion, so to that extent I get why they might not have wanted to live under majority Jewish government.

VisaWoes · 10/10/2023 08:08

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:03

Oh I didn't know those living in the intended Jewish territory would have been allowed to remain as full citizens. A delightful racism-shrieker earlier in the thread told me they'd have been losing their homeland and society if they had agreed to the two-state solution back in the 1930's. So they wouldn't have? Those who found themselves inside it could have stayed where they were and been equal citizens? So was their problem that it would have been a majority Jewish state and they didn't want Jews ruling either them or what they viewed as Islamic land?

Well then I don’t know why we had such an issue with the idea of Germany invading us in the 1940s and the U.K. becoming a German state and ruling the U.K. I mean we could have stayed still? 🤷‍♀️

Howpo · 10/10/2023 08:08

Efacsen · 10/10/2023 08:05

It shouldn't be forgotten that Egypt is also blockading Gaza too

This isn't true

Yesterday Israeli fighter planes bombed the Rafah Border Crossing - that's why it's closed ATM

@Howpo

Apologies, you re correct but wasn't it closed before that? i.e there was some aid allowed through but no one allowed out?

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:09

Supposing a group declared they were going to take over an area of Britain. Most of the members of the group were outsiders. They would run the area as their own. They initially offered to let some people stay in the area, although they'd probably have to give up their homes and move somewhere else. Would it be fair to expect the British to give in? Of course not. So why Arabs? Why are they different?

About the Nakba:

The Nakba, which means “catastrophe” in Arabic, refers to the mass displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Before the Nakba, Palestine was a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural society.

https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:10

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:07

Well, that's good. Perhaps you could extend your sympathy as far as not twisting and misrepresenting a nation that was founded with international support and immediately attacked.

By 'international' you mean 'powerful imperialist nations'. The actual people living in and around Palestine did NOT support it.

Clafoutie · 10/10/2023 08:11

mapleriver · 10/10/2023 05:57

@Clafoutie I agree it gets nowhere, but try thinking that when it happens to you. I doubt you could

I have thought about that. I don’t know how I would be. I imagine my desire for revenge would be very strong, perhaps it would overwhelm me. I am not meaning to judge anyone who is in that situation. I just hope I wouldn’t end up so brutalised myself that I could be so casually accepting of ‘an eye for an eye’. I hope it wouldn’t overwhelm me to the point of wanting to see another person’s child killed, but you are right in that I wouldn’t know until I was in that situation. When you read or hear from people who have been in those situations, some still believe in an eye for an eye, and some don’t, in spite of what has happened to them. I just hope I would be one of them, because the alternative seems so futile.

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:11

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:08

@Mustardseed86 And would they have been given compensation for their land, or been able to sell it at market value, to Jews, if they didn't want to be ruled by former dhimmis/people of a different religion? If they wanted to move to the Arab, as in muslim, territory? I can understand wanting your government to implement laws consistent with/deriving from your religion, so to that extent I get why they might not have wanted to live under majority Jewish government.

Yes, although many of them were tenants so weren't in a position to buy or sell land AFAIK. It's a very difficult, complex area but Israel has always been a legitimate nation state since the region of Palestine went from Ottoman control, to British mandate, to declaring independence with UN backing.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:13

Israel has always been a legitimate nation state

European colonialists took over large areas of Africa to create internationally recognised territories. The native people were considered not to own the land and not to count. Sound familiar?

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:13

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:10

By 'international' you mean 'powerful imperialist nations'. The actual people living in and around Palestine did NOT support it.

I'm well aware the countries surrounding didn't want a Jewish state in their midst. Honestly this is Sixth form level politics, you might want to try living in reality. Many new nations were created during that period and I don't see any other groups who refuse to accept that decades later.

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:14

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:13

Israel has always been a legitimate nation state

European colonialists took over large areas of Africa to create internationally recognised territories. The native people were considered not to own the land and not to count. Sound familiar?

Sounds like false equivalency to me.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:16

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:13

I'm well aware the countries surrounding didn't want a Jewish state in their midst. Honestly this is Sixth form level politics, you might want to try living in reality. Many new nations were created during that period and I don't see any other groups who refuse to accept that decades later.

The point is that Israel should not have been created in the first place, at least not in that area. But it has been, and that can't be reversed. That's why we've got the current gruesome situation. Israel are not helping themselves with vicious reprisals against a civilian population, half of whom are children.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 10/10/2023 08:17

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 03:51

I am an Israeli Jew. I believe that the Palestinians in the West Bank live under apartheid rule. I support Palestine and a Palestinian state. I am opposed to the occupation.

Until this Saturday, I opposed Netanyahu and his government of fruitcakes, but now priorities have to change.

We have seen the massacres of civilians the like of which we have not seen since the Einsatzgruppen went to Ukraine, since the Cossacks raped and ran our people down. We cannot negotiate with those who live stream their barbarism. We cannot negotiate with ISIS.

At the moment I feel utterly united with the whole nation of Israel in its war against the Isis style government of Gaza

This is our Bataclan. Our 9/11. Our Blitz. Our Pearl Harbour. They are our ISIS. What they do not understand is we are now bound with them into a struggle to death whatever the cost to us and to them. Their regime must fall.

If they had attacked military targets we could not complain. If they dragged off our bloodied and dazed 19 year old soldiers to Gaza, that would be in the nature of the conflict of nations, and I have already explained I feel a great deal of sympathy with the plight of the Palestinian people. There are no shortages of military targets around Gaza, and they achieved an impressive feat in overwhelming our military bases and destroying our most modern weapons.

But they did not come to fight against our soldiers.

When they came such was the shock they had 5 hours they could have spent on military objectives. Instead they were exultant, live streaming, driving up and down the paths of a music festival in pick ups, to methodically kill our children, to rape and then murder our girls, to kill Thai farmers with a shovel while shouting in a grotesque blasphemy Allahu Akhbar..... We have seen that look in the eye of the Gentiles for thousands of years.

The world is disgusted and ashamed.

No more.

We act not out of anger, and not out of fear, but out of a love for the lives of our children who have been born and have not yet been born, so that they should never know such horrors.

We cannot and we will not judge force to a nicety. We. Are. At. War.

The terrible truth is that we cannot even surgically work around our own children and elderly held hostage. We must put our operational needs above their safety. The bombs will fall where they need to fall, on the tunnels and weapons caches, and may God have mercy on the poor souls, the souls of the hostages, the souls of the civilians of Gaza, and especially their poor children and elderly.

During both world wars, during the Falklands war, during the Iraq war, it was widely accepted that during war time all supplies are blockaded including supplies of food. British planes dropped botulism to kill German cattle and to starve the German people. The horrors of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima live on. More recently, Ukraine turned Crimean agriculture into dust when they turned off the waters of the North Caucasus canal in 2014. The Sri Lankan war ended in a full on assault with mortars against a ragged encampment full of fighters and women and children, and that was the end of Isis and that will be the end of Hamas.

This is the nature of war. We try not to hit the civilians, but violence is violent and we cannot always carry out precise surgery under fire.

We. Are. At. War.

We fight for our own country and our own children, for our boys and girls, and for our freedom. War is terrible, but war has come to our homes, our religious festivities, and our farms, our villages and our dancing, to our children and our grandparents, and there is now no turning back, no half measures.

We are at war. At this time there is: No food. No water. No petrol. No electricity. Not for our own people held hostage in Gaza and not for their people.

We will re-evaluate in a few days after we have captured more ground.

An incredible post that everyone should read.

Thank you.

Stay strong. Know that Jews and all civilised people round the world are united with you.

I have been so heartened on social media by seeing how many real people (most on this thread are sock puppets or bots) have posted support for Israel in the last few days, including many who have said how their attitudes, like yours, have changed in the last few days.

The arc of the world tends towards good.

Stay safe. Flowers

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:17

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:14

Sounds like false equivalency to me.

Explain? It's exactly the same. International powers backing a land grab from native peoples who don't have the power (or international recognition) to resist.

zendeveloper · 10/10/2023 08:18

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:17

Explain? It's exactly the same. International powers backing a land grab from native peoples who don't have the power (or international recognition) to resist.

Errr... Jews are native to the area too.

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:19

VisaWoes · 10/10/2023 08:08

Well then I don’t know why we had such an issue with the idea of Germany invading us in the 1940s and the U.K. becoming a German state and ruling the U.K. I mean we could have stayed still? 🤷‍♀️

Eh? I'm not sure you followed the other thread but I learned that Jews had always lived in that area alongside the Arabs. I thought they'd all been kicked out in Roman times and had just started trying to go back in the early 20th century or something.

Nobody had a state because it was part of the Ottoman empire and someone else before that. Then the British controlled it. When they were planning to leave, in the 1930's and 1940's, they offered to give both the Jews and the Arabs their own state to solve the problem of them not exactly getting along. I've been trying to find out why the Arabs refused what seemed like a very sensible proposal in the context of the centuries of dhimmitude they had imposed on their Jewish neighbours.

SinkingSilently · 10/10/2023 08:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

It sounded like a Penny Mordaunt Tory party speech.

You are the most biased poster on the thread.

I am being paid? For what? You have ignored my comments expressing sympathy for the Jewish people who have died and are being held hostage. I am currently trying to support a Jewish junior colleague stuck in Israel right now. Helping her with flights to turkey so she can get back to London with her young kids, and telling her not to worry about work. I have told my kids to text their Jewish friends messages of support. Your comment of ‘Jew-hatred’ is as offensive as it is incorrect.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 08:20

Errr... Jews are native to the area too.

Yes, in the minority. Most of the new citizens of Israel came from the rest of the world.

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 08:25

Mustardseed86 · 10/10/2023 08:11

Yes, although many of them were tenants so weren't in a position to buy or sell land AFAIK. It's a very difficult, complex area but Israel has always been a legitimate nation state since the region of Palestine went from Ottoman control, to British mandate, to declaring independence with UN backing.

Ah I see. Well then they wouldn't have been leaving the main asset behind either I suppose. I wonder what happened to the assets of Germans in eastern Europe who were expelled after WW2.

I'm not too interested really in what is or isn't legally legitimate. I don't take either the UN or international law seriously for what are probably obvious reasons. I'm interested in what was morally right or wrong.

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