Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

[Lieblingsessen]

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

Now you're teaching me about it when you've previous said you didn't care about it, 'what of it', you've misrepresented dhimmitude as 'just a tax', then just 'protected status,'. I don't think so! And you still haven't answered a single question. It's clear why you don't want to answer the questions I asked and I wont engage with you further. You have nothing other than whataboutery and evasion which is why that's all you do. Until someone on your side does answer my questions adequately, that settles my position.

I don't think historical Muslim customs, that concern Christians and other religious groups as well as Jews, are at all relevant to this discussion. You sound like a member of the BNP going on about 'dhimmis'. It's one of the far right's favourite themes.

I have engaged with your questions, but genuinely don't know how to help you any further. All I can suggest is you read up on the history of Israel and Palestine. There's a lot of information online. I told you about the Nakba and you straight out didn't believe me. There's nothing more I can do.

Totally agree. A war is between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine got days to evacuate to neighbouring countries opening their borders with many counties sending aids, tanks, starlink, planes and any weapons at Zelenksy's request.

Palestine as you say are half starving, blockaded country. The playing field has never been equal. No help unlike Israel with the US and west at their disposal, a real army and world rebounded intelligence service and of course the deadly illegal bombs and artillery to maximise destruction in a densely populated area against a few terrorists with their hand made artillery and rocks thrown by 6 year olds. The playing field has never been equal.

Yes, since they were attacked for the first of numerous times in 1948.

I think that most people find what Hamas did was abhorrent.

I have huge sympathy and my heart breaks for the innocent Palestinians who will now die. They do not deserve to be deprived of water and medicine and die horrible deaths.

But it is impossible to defend the cruelty of Hamas. I can’t imagine what those Israeli people felt as the terrorists entered their homes or kidnapped them at festivals. What the Israeli hostages might be going through right now makes me feel sick. The photos of the little girls taken with their mum makes me seethe. How dare they.

Everyone responsible for this situation is an inhumane murderer.

You are so clever and funny, though I can't "imagine" ordinary people wanting to suffer and die horribly, in 2023 or any other year.

The foundation of the state was based on violence (Irgun, Stern Gang) and was against the wishes of Palestinians living in the area, as well as their neighbours. That's why they were attacked. You don't found a state by force, grabbing land from the local people, and expect everything to be hunky dory.

You might have moved on from the past, but the past has not moved on from us.

Incidentally the UK attacked Yugoslavian power stations in the late 90s.

The lives of poor brown people are worth less than white ones. It has always been the case and always will.

If only there was a word we could throw around when people speak against the brown people of Palestine…

As I said already, it was not a custom, it was the law. Fascinating that you keep calling it a custom. Gee, I wonder why someone would do that? I most certainly did not 'not believe you' about the Nakba. What a ridiculous thing to say. I know you understood exactly what I said because you clearly can read. So why would you say that? I wonder.

You absolutely have not answered the questions I asked when they didn't suit you. Anyone reading this can see that and can draw their own conclusions about what's going on.

And now, of course, in case anyone else starts noticing what you've been doing, you're shrieking BNP. Of course. None of that shit works on me. I'm done with you.

Is this sarcasm? Genuine question.

What about the brown people of Israel?
This is so simplistic. Look up Mizrahis. Also Arab Israelis.

You didn't say 'ordinary people don't want to suffer and die horribly'.

You said they 'probably just want to live their life in peace.'

Why did you move the goalpost?

@Pollyputhekettleon your question as I remember was 'should the Palestinians have been forced to sacrifice land to the Zionists as an apology for dhimmitude'. My answer was 'no, don't be ridiculous', or words to that effect.

When I told you about the Nakba you said 'no, they were not being asked to 'give up their society and homeland'.' That suggests didn't read the link and have no clue what the Nakba is about.

We've reached the end of the road. I recommended a good, easy-to-read book that will give you an insight into the situation there. 'I Shall Not Hate', written by a Palestinian peace activist with many Israeli friends. Try to learn more about the situation and stop bothering me with far right propaganda.

FYI Jews and Palestinians are the same colour

The latter bit was. One poster here shrieking antisemitism at every opportunity would be like people accusing pro-Israel posters of racism every time they criticised Palestinians. Which of course would be a ridiculous thing to do.

It's so strange how people think that this awful human tragedy can be reduced to a meme or social media slogan, if only it were as simple as some people on here claim!

So this bit was serious:

'The lives of poor brown people are worth less than white ones. It has always been the case and always will.'

Are you familiar with how dhimmitude worked? It didn't discriminate based on race or class all, it discriminated instead based on religious status. Jews and Christian were second class citizens, while polytheists were, well, in a spot of trouble. Nothing to do with race or class. So no, that has not always and everywhere been the case. That's just a western-centric 21st century belief.

Those same 'poor brown people" still find time to be anti Black, anti gay, anti woman.
And Jewish people are not one race, on or outside of Israel.
If there is going to be debate, let's not get childish now.
Because we know that when it comes to racism, too many "Brown" people in their indigenous lands and outside find it easy to express anti Blackness that White people would think twice about.
That's the whole of the Caribbean for a start, much less the whole of the Arab world and Middle East, even as some Arabs are Black.
But that area has been the definition of " could start a fight in a coffin" for millennia. PRE the inception of modern Israel.
This story is most definitely not Israel Against All These Lovely Sanctified People Who Knew Peace Before Those Jews Stole Their State From Palestinians ( who no other Arab State want to come flooding into their country, but will put a battery in their back and use them to finesse Muslim Anti Semitism).

One Jewish state in the entire world, in their ancestral homeland, with the backing of the international community. Arabs living in the territory were invited to remain and be full citizens. They were also repeatedly offered large swathes of their own territory, but have always refused any kind of agreement, sadly.

It shouldn't be forgotten that Egypt is also blockading Gaza too.

As for the innocent Palestinians, Hamas hasn't come from nowhere & if they allow in humanitarian aid etc who will be controlling and using that food electricity etc?

I'm old now but hearing the news from Israel just reminds me of my youth and the PLO, these people hate each other, they always have & they both want Jerusalem.. its an intractable problem & one that has and will continue to threaten us as well.

War crimes can be dealt with when war has ended. There are deep and wide communication channels these days and there will be plenty of evidence. There will be plenty of debate.

In the meantime, the cancer that is Hamas is going to be eradicated. Despite mitigation of civilian casualties, during this eradication process innocents will suffer and die horrible deaths. That is a fact that will co-exist alongside Hamas' destruction.

I have great sympathy with the Jewish people, especially after the horrors of the Second World War. But two wrongs don't make a right. The Israel situation is a real mess and I don't know what the answer is. Collective punishment against civilians - half of whom are children - is not going to make things better. Netanyahu wants to send out a message that the Arabs will remember for generations. And he might - but in a way that will rebound horribly on Israel.

I think fundamentally Israel has been on the receiving end of a horrific terrorist attack, I read about siblings aged 6, 6 and 4 who were slaughtered in their home. Not accidentally killed mind, someone chose to kill a 4yr old.
I’m fairly sure absolutely nothing could make me rape someone or shoot babies, literally nothing. The equivalent death toll in the UK would be 4200 people killed over 48 hours. They have taken HOSTAGES FFS, children, women! How on earth would brits react to that?

After the Manchester bombing was mumsnet full of people saying “ah yes but we have to take responsibility for this and we should definitely be sending aid to peoples in isis areas” (and we definitely know there were civilians there who had absolutely nothing to do with isis)?

They suffered an immense attack, they are expected to do what? What do you think they can do? If it were a neighbour would you expect the british government to carry on supplying Hamas with electricity and water? Would you expect that the British government care more about their security or yours?

Does anyone wonder why the blockade exists in the first place?

Goodness knows I pity the Gazans, it’s not a life while your “government” collects billions and you can’t buy food, shoots rockets from your building damn well knowing the israelis will flatten it, arrest you if your are gay or dissent, refuse elections etc. Hamas do this and they don’t care because their leaders are sitting in Qatar, safe and happy. Every single life lost is a tragedy, regardless of whether they are Israeli of Palestinian.

But I’m not sure what people expect of Israel? What should they do? How about we expect Hamas not shoot people down at a party? They were only there to kill jews.

I have no skin in this game, I’m not Jewish I’m not from a western background but it seems to me that terrorism is bad unless it happens to Israelis then we have to understand. Western nations have wreaked devastation across the middle east yet when Britain suffers a terrorist attack I don’t hear so many voices suggesting we should be understanding and concerned (and the subtext, you deserve it).

Oh I didn't know those living in the intended Jewish territory would have been allowed to remain as full citizens. A delightful racism-shrieker earlier in the thread told me they'd have been losing their homeland and society if they had agreed to the two-state solution back in the 1930's. So they wouldn't have? Those who found themselves inside it could have stayed where they were and been equal citizens? So was their problem that it would have been a majority Jewish state and they didn't want Jews ruling either them or what they viewed as Islamic land?