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Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

1000 replies

Lieblingsessen · 09/10/2023 19:19

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

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20
SinkingSilently · 10/10/2023 06:22

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 03:51

I am an Israeli Jew. I believe that the Palestinians in the West Bank live under apartheid rule. I support Palestine and a Palestinian state. I am opposed to the occupation.

Until this Saturday, I opposed Netanyahu and his government of fruitcakes, but now priorities have to change.

We have seen the massacres of civilians the like of which we have not seen since the Einsatzgruppen went to Ukraine, since the Cossacks raped and ran our people down. We cannot negotiate with those who live stream their barbarism. We cannot negotiate with ISIS.

At the moment I feel utterly united with the whole nation of Israel in its war against the Isis style government of Gaza

This is our Bataclan. Our 9/11. Our Blitz. Our Pearl Harbour. They are our ISIS. What they do not understand is we are now bound with them into a struggle to death whatever the cost to us and to them. Their regime must fall.

If they had attacked military targets we could not complain. If they dragged off our bloodied and dazed 19 year old soldiers to Gaza, that would be in the nature of the conflict of nations, and I have already explained I feel a great deal of sympathy with the plight of the Palestinian people. There are no shortages of military targets around Gaza, and they achieved an impressive feat in overwhelming our military bases and destroying our most modern weapons.

But they did not come to fight against our soldiers.

When they came such was the shock they had 5 hours they could have spent on military objectives. Instead they were exultant, live streaming, driving up and down the paths of a music festival in pick ups, to methodically kill our children, to rape and then murder our girls, to kill Thai farmers with a shovel while shouting in a grotesque blasphemy Allahu Akhbar..... We have seen that look in the eye of the Gentiles for thousands of years.

The world is disgusted and ashamed.

No more.

We act not out of anger, and not out of fear, but out of a love for the lives of our children who have been born and have not yet been born, so that they should never know such horrors.

We cannot and we will not judge force to a nicety. We. Are. At. War.

The terrible truth is that we cannot even surgically work around our own children and elderly held hostage. We must put our operational needs above their safety. The bombs will fall where they need to fall, on the tunnels and weapons caches, and may God have mercy on the poor souls, the souls of the hostages, the souls of the civilians of Gaza, and especially their poor children and elderly.

During both world wars, during the Falklands war, during the Iraq war, it was widely accepted that during war time all supplies are blockaded including supplies of food. British planes dropped botulism to kill German cattle and to starve the German people. The horrors of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima live on. More recently, Ukraine turned Crimean agriculture into dust when they turned off the waters of the North Caucasus canal in 2014. The Sri Lankan war ended in a full on assault with mortars against a ragged encampment full of fighters and women and children, and that was the end of Isis and that will be the end of Hamas.

This is the nature of war. We try not to hit the civilians, but violence is violent and we cannot always carry out precise surgery under fire.

We. Are. At. War.

We fight for our own country and our own children, for our boys and girls, and for our freedom. War is terrible, but war has come to our homes, our religious festivities, and our farms, our villages and our dancing, to our children and our grandparents, and there is now no turning back, no half measures.

We are at war. At this time there is: No food. No water. No petrol. No electricity. Not for our own people held hostage in Gaza and not for their people.

We will re-evaluate in a few days after we have captured more ground.

Are you part of the government?

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 06:33

During world war 2 Britains clearly understood what collective punishment was: when villages in Greece and France were massacred as revenge. Britain itself blockaded German food, because this is the custom of war: blockade of food and water is a legitimate and long standing tactic throughout the history of warfare.

Killing hostages and Al Jazeera gloatingly screening the murders, as Hamas threatens to do, is collective punishment.

Now the bleeding hearts have turned the doctrine on its head. The Israelis can be collectively massacred and punished, and they are, it is argued, nevertheless obliged to nevertheless contribute to provision water and food into territory held by the enemy. This attitude is apologetics and enabling to those who conducted collective punishment, the kidnapping, rapes and the massacre this Saturday.

No. Enough.

We are at war.

There will be no more food, no more water, no fuel, and no electricity sent by us to the territory of our enemies. Stopping sending supplies to enemy territory is not collective punishment.

SinkingSilently · 10/10/2023 06:33

Pinkflamingopants · 10/10/2023 06:14

@Truthisbetterthanlies shouting ‘anti semite’ to every person who makes a valid point about the (illegal) reaction from the Israeli government on the illegal and horrific attacks by Hamas makes it impossible to have any proper discussion or debate.

Yes this. The biggest trope here is the squeals about antisemitism when discussing the actions of the Israeli government. It devalues the horror of true antisemitism which is still a huge endemic problem.

I live in N London and have many good friends who are Jewish, as do my kids. We have all spoken over the years about the problems in Israel/Gaza in a sensitive and intelligent way (including right now), without any non-Jewish friends being inappropriately accused of antisemitism.

We need to keep the term to use when it’s rightly needed. Some posters here are being ridiculous and throwing the word around in an unhelpful way.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/10/2023 06:37

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 03:51

I am an Israeli Jew. I believe that the Palestinians in the West Bank live under apartheid rule. I support Palestine and a Palestinian state. I am opposed to the occupation.

Until this Saturday, I opposed Netanyahu and his government of fruitcakes, but now priorities have to change.

We have seen the massacres of civilians the like of which we have not seen since the Einsatzgruppen went to Ukraine, since the Cossacks raped and ran our people down. We cannot negotiate with those who live stream their barbarism. We cannot negotiate with ISIS.

At the moment I feel utterly united with the whole nation of Israel in its war against the Isis style government of Gaza

This is our Bataclan. Our 9/11. Our Blitz. Our Pearl Harbour. They are our ISIS. What they do not understand is we are now bound with them into a struggle to death whatever the cost to us and to them. Their regime must fall.

If they had attacked military targets we could not complain. If they dragged off our bloodied and dazed 19 year old soldiers to Gaza, that would be in the nature of the conflict of nations, and I have already explained I feel a great deal of sympathy with the plight of the Palestinian people. There are no shortages of military targets around Gaza, and they achieved an impressive feat in overwhelming our military bases and destroying our most modern weapons.

But they did not come to fight against our soldiers.

When they came such was the shock they had 5 hours they could have spent on military objectives. Instead they were exultant, live streaming, driving up and down the paths of a music festival in pick ups, to methodically kill our children, to rape and then murder our girls, to kill Thai farmers with a shovel while shouting in a grotesque blasphemy Allahu Akhbar..... We have seen that look in the eye of the Gentiles for thousands of years.

The world is disgusted and ashamed.

No more.

We act not out of anger, and not out of fear, but out of a love for the lives of our children who have been born and have not yet been born, so that they should never know such horrors.

We cannot and we will not judge force to a nicety. We. Are. At. War.

The terrible truth is that we cannot even surgically work around our own children and elderly held hostage. We must put our operational needs above their safety. The bombs will fall where they need to fall, on the tunnels and weapons caches, and may God have mercy on the poor souls, the souls of the hostages, the souls of the civilians of Gaza, and especially their poor children and elderly.

During both world wars, during the Falklands war, during the Iraq war, it was widely accepted that during war time all supplies are blockaded including supplies of food. British planes dropped botulism to kill German cattle and to starve the German people. The horrors of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima live on. More recently, Ukraine turned Crimean agriculture into dust when they turned off the waters of the North Caucasus canal in 2014. The Sri Lankan war ended in a full on assault with mortars against a ragged encampment full of fighters and women and children, and that was the end of Isis and that will be the end of Hamas.

This is the nature of war. We try not to hit the civilians, but violence is violent and we cannot always carry out precise surgery under fire.

We. Are. At. War.

We fight for our own country and our own children, for our boys and girls, and for our freedom. War is terrible, but war has come to our homes, our religious festivities, and our farms, our villages and our dancing, to our children and our grandparents, and there is now no turning back, no half measures.

We are at war. At this time there is: No food. No water. No petrol. No electricity. Not for our own people held hostage in Gaza and not for their people.

We will re-evaluate in a few days after we have captured more ground.

We will re-evaluate in a few days after we have captured more ground

Wasn’t this the starting point for the troubles in the region? Israelis taking over Palestinian land and homes and claiming it as their own.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 06:46

Wasn’t this the starting point for the troubles in the region? Israelis taking over Palestinian land and homes and claiming it as their own.

Yes, in the longer term.

I respect the right of the Palestinian nation to their own state. The Apartheid which happens in the West Bank is shameful.

But.

There was no excuse for this pogrom, this exultation in the blood of the innocent. Sights have been seen which cannot be unseen.

We are at war with Hamas / Daesh barbarians. We cannot accept their continued grip on power. The world is not big enough for both of us.

In an ideal world we would retake the strip, then hand it over to a responsible government. Egypt, or the Palestinian Authority.

We cannot however make other Arab governments step up.

localnotail · 10/10/2023 06:53

Violence only breeds violence. Right now Palestinians are suffering because of what Hamas did, and trying to defend and justify them killing around 700 civilians is sickening. Israel is doing what they would have done in this situation, both sides want each other dead, but it got escalated to this because of Hamas' actions in the last days. If Hamas had the capability, they would bomb Israel out of existence. No part in this conflict is blameless, but it there was no full blown war a week ago, and now there is, and it's clear who instigated it.

Simonjt · 10/10/2023 06:54

Yalta · 10/10/2023 02:55

Whilst posters are saying that Hamas are separate from Palestine and the Palestinian people don’t support Hamas.
Could someone explain the scenes involving Palestinians celebrating the attack if they don’t agree with what Hamas did.

You are aware that there are Palestinians that weren’t featured in the video? Or if you see a BNP rally in the UK, does that mean all British people support the BNP? Some Jewish business were targetted in the UK, so I take it you think all British people are anti-semitic?

VisaWoes · 10/10/2023 06:59

bombastix · 09/10/2023 22:18

The person who said Israel is not obliged to trade has it right. They don't.

But is it ok that they seal Gaza off from other countries (who may be happy to send trade) and not allow those countries to send food in?

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:03

Both sides don't want each other dead.

I wish the Palestinian nation a long life and prosperity and dignity. Many of them suffer, as we suffer, under the rule of Hamas.

But let's be real; because of the deprivations of the occupation, for which I apologise, and also because of chauvinism and revanchism, opinion polls consistently show most Palestinians would vote for Hamas.

Daesh was also popular in its Sunni caliphate for a variety of reasons. It seemed to offer answers but all it could offer in reality was suffering.

We cannot abide with that barbaric government. There can be no peace between my people and that government, not now, and not for ever.

localnotail · 10/10/2023 07:04

Seeing how many people completely removed from the situation are trying to justify Hamas killing hundreds of civilians, I don't hold much hope for Palestinians who are actually living in the area of conflict being very sympathetic/ care at all about murdered and kidnapped Israelis. All I can say is I feel very sorry for innocent people, especially children, suffering and dying on both sides.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:07

But is it ok that they seal Gaza off from other countries (who may be happy to send trade) and not allow those countries to send food in?

Yes.

The British government did this in WW1
WW2, the Napoleonic wars, and pretty much every major war this country ever engaged in. It is consistent with the customary rules of war.

localnotail · 10/10/2023 07:07

@AUserNameIsNot well, at the moment it looks like they do. But I can imagine that ordinary Israelis, as well as ordinary Palestinians, probably just want to live their life in peace.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/10/2023 07:08

@AUserNameIsNot
If Israel took the strip, I’m not going to use retake.

If Israel took the strip, which Israeli citizens are slowly doing by stealth in any case, wouldn’t that just encourage them to move in en masse?

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/10/2023 07:13

localnotail · 10/10/2023 07:04

Seeing how many people completely removed from the situation are trying to justify Hamas killing hundreds of civilians, I don't hold much hope for Palestinians who are actually living in the area of conflict being very sympathetic/ care at all about murdered and kidnapped Israelis. All I can say is I feel very sorry for innocent people, especially children, suffering and dying on both sides.

I am not reading reap what you sow comments as justifying the killing.

Humblebottomous · 10/10/2023 07:14

Boundoverbyacat · 09/10/2023 21:33

The Palestinians voted Hamas in.

The whole thing is terrible and I can’t ever see a solution. But killing and parading naked women bleeding from their vaginas as they’ve been raped to death doesn’t elicit much sympathy from me.

I agree. I don’t hold any sympathy for those who voted them in. It’s a shame for the rest of them but the treatment of innocent young women in this way is abhorrent.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:16

We de-occupied Lebanon and we de-occupied from Gaza, and withdraw from the Sinai and we can leave Gaza again.

We have no emotional or religious connection with these lands.

The West Bank is the historical heartland of the Jewish nation and that is why (in my opinion) millenarian religious fan extremists are willing to bring up their families in considerable danger. I disagree with the occupation, and I disagree with the settlements.

Even for those diehards, Gaza city is too dangerous and too foreign. Literally nobody in the country wants to live there.

Givemepeas · 10/10/2023 07:18

‘We’re at war’ - with people who are half starving, have no means to defend themselves?
Hamas is a terrorist grp - everyone keeps declaring that. Not the government.
it’s collective punishment and Israel want revenge.
at the moment there is sympathy but that will wain as they kill more and more innocents.

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 07:19

NotTerfNorCis · 10/10/2023 00:10

No, they were not being asked to 'give up their society and homeland'. How do you give up your society anyway?!

By being driven off the land you're living on, and forced into a permanent refugee status. This idea that the Arabs living in Palestine, who would have been generally quite impoverished and powerless, owed a cultural debt to the Jewish people that they had to pay by giving up what they had.. that's just bonkers. As said, if anyone owed the Jewish people territory after World War Two, Germany would have been the prime candidate.

Honestly, there's so much you could learn about this if you genuinely wanted to. I recommend Izzeldin Abuelaish's book 'I Shall Not Hate' as a starting point. Abuelaish 'has devoted his life to medicine and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shall-Not-Hate-Doctors-Journey/dp/1408822091

Now you're teaching me about it when you've previous said you didn't care about it, 'what of it', you've misrepresented dhimmitude as 'just a tax', then just 'protected status,'. I don't think so! And you still haven't answered a single question. It's clear why you don't want to answer the questions I asked and I wont engage with you further. You have nothing other than whataboutery and evasion which is why that's all you do. Until someone on your side does answer my questions adequately, that settles my position.

cakeorwine · 10/10/2023 07:19

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:07

But is it ok that they seal Gaza off from other countries (who may be happy to send trade) and not allow those countries to send food in?

Yes.

The British government did this in WW1
WW2, the Napoleonic wars, and pretty much every major war this country ever engaged in. It is consistent with the customary rules of war.

We have moved on from the past.

I can think of plenty of techniques that were used in the past during warfare to try to win that would not be acceptable now. Unfortunately some countries engaged in conflict still use such tactics as weapons of war.

Pollyputhekettleon · 10/10/2023 07:26

localnotail · 10/10/2023 07:07

@AUserNameIsNot well, at the moment it looks like they do. But I can imagine that ordinary Israelis, as well as ordinary Palestinians, probably just want to live their life in peace.

Fittingly, I think that idea derives from a John Lennon song. I'm not sure how people believe it in 2023 without strong drugs though.

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:30

We are at war with the barbaric government of Gaza, like Britain fought the government of Germany.

The people in Gaza are not half starving in normal times. They have wide roads, good schools and universities, beautiful olive groves and beaches. Along the seafront they can eat at plentiful restaurants and supermarkets and are overall moderately wealthy compared to the Egyptian Bedouin settlements to the South. If you don't believe me, look on Google Maps.

Gaza was not under seige before the massacre in Saturday.

It is now.

Aishah231 · 10/10/2023 07:30

Gaza was already blockaded even before this - but obviously it's even worse now. I'm also wondering why the mainstream press are pushing one narrative on this. Violence on both sides is not justified but the treatment of those in Gaza is a war crime.

petuniasandpetals · 10/10/2023 07:32

@givemepeace
Hamas, a terrorist group ARE the government.

petuniasandpetals · 10/10/2023 07:33

And even yesterday we're saying on R4 their aim is to annihilate Israel.

cakeorwine · 10/10/2023 07:33

AUserNameIsNot · 10/10/2023 07:30

We are at war with the barbaric government of Gaza, like Britain fought the government of Germany.

The people in Gaza are not half starving in normal times. They have wide roads, good schools and universities, beautiful olive groves and beaches. Along the seafront they can eat at plentiful restaurants and supermarkets and are overall moderately wealthy compared to the Egyptian Bedouin settlements to the South. If you don't believe me, look on Google Maps.

Gaza was not under seige before the massacre in Saturday.

It is now.

Pretty ineffective blockade wasn't it then for the last 17 years.

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