Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

[Lieblingsessen]

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

This is true. They are the 'Occupied Palestinian Territories'. Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

No I meant 'back in the 1930's'. Of course they never had a state before. States didn't exist until fairly recently. I don't know why you're saying the Arabs would have suffered as a result of letting the Jews get their state as well. You never claimed before that that's why they refused it.

Speaking of apologies though, as I think I asked before, has there ever been an apology for dhimmitude? Are there books written about it as there are about European antisemitism, analyzing its roots, discussing how to prevent it happening again? Are there classes in schools throughout that part of the world where it was implemented teaching children about it? Hollywood movies about it?

I really did mean it when I told you I don't do whataboutery. Yet you keep at it. Do you even notice the extent to which you're doing it? Meanwhile my questions about how being second class citizens protected the Jews remain unanswered.

Because 👏Egyptians 👏 are 👏 not 👏 the 👏 ones 👏 who 👏 jailed 👏 Palestinians 👏 in 👏 Gaza 👏

What don't you get?

Palestinians who live in Israel, and there are plenty (about 20% of the population) have the same human rights as all other citizens of Israel.

The same cannot be said for Jewish people in Hammas governed Palestine / Gaza. Nor can it be said for women or LBGT people. All of whom are actually denied basic human rights. Gaza is not Israeli territory.

”I know not with what weapons WWIII will be fought but I know that WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.”
—Albert Einstein

I dunno - maybe someday they’ll throw a war and nobody will come.

I don't know why you're saying the Arabs would have suffered as a result of letting the Jews get their state as well.

They were driven out of their land. They call it the Nakba, disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba The Nakba (lit. 'the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"'), also known as the Palestinian Catastrophe, was the destruction of Palestinian society and homeland in 1948, and the permanent displacement of a majority of the Palestinian Arabs. The term is used to describe both the events of 1948 and the ongoing occupation of the Palestinians in the Palestinian territories (the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip), as well as their persecution and displacement in the Palestinian territories and in Palestinian refugee camps throughout the region.

I really did mean it when I told you I don't do whataboutery. Yet you keep at it.

Those were analogies. You expect the Palestinians to give up their society and homeland as penance for a Muslim custom. But you don't expect other groups to do the same. Why not?

Because 👏Egyptians 👏 are 👏 not 👏 the 👏 ones 👏 who 👏 jailed 👏 Palestinians 👏 in 👏 Gaza 👏

Realistically, Gaza is blockaded because it is controlled by Hamas.

Is that bad enough for you ? Or should we still go ahead with the starvation of Palestinians?

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/-treated-like-animals----palestinian-children-suffer-inhumane-tr

https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65812442

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66682821

What about Palestinians living in the occupied territories @VerityUnreasonble ? What rights do they have?

And if Gaza is not Israeli territory, why does Israel control its airspace and its borders with the sea?

To be honest, I could go and google a lot of images and reports that show how shit life in Gaza is, but I'm sure you'd then go and find a lot more to show your point of view.
It's like anything nowadays, from Brexit to ULEZ to Israel and Palestine, you just can't have a debate on social media without being insulted or called a liar etc. I think that's what puts a lot of people off actually getting to know the truth or engaging in debate.
Buy hey, I'm out, I couldn't have been more explicitly clear in my posts that I'm supportive of Israel- but also Palestine- in fact of the two sides living in peace.
Not vitriol from strangers online

Now you're talking about something that happened in 1948 when I was told on another thread that the British offered both a state in the 1930's.

No, they were not being asked to 'give up their society and homeland'. How do you give up your society anyway?! Their territory had been shared with the Jews for centuries. The way in which they had 'shared' it post-Islam was systemic oppression. Yes it makes perfect sense that they should have addressed that by allowing the Jews a portion of that territory in which to be free from their former oppressors, when the opportunity arose. Especially since those oppressors have apparently never even apologized for it, and it's not like it was merely ancient history in the early 20th century! Although I notice you're again answering basically none of the questions I asked about that.

And realistically, what explain the settlers stealing Palestinians' home and land in Palestine? Hamas?

And the blocade started in 2005, Hamas was voted in 2006.

It's always Palestinians fault, they make Israel do it...

And also, dhimmitude was not merely a 'muslim custom'. It was literally the law of the Islamic states in that area, for centuries.

And realistically, what explain the settlers stealing Palestinians' home and land in Palestine? Hamas?

And I haven't defended that. However that isn't in Gaza.

Summed up beautifully.

No, they were not being asked to 'give up their society and homeland'. How do you give up your society anyway?!

By being driven off the land you're living on, and forced into a permanent refugee status. This idea that the Arabs living in Palestine, who would have been generally quite impoverished and powerless, owed a cultural debt to the Jewish people that they had to pay by giving up what they had.. that's just bonkers. As said, if anyone owed the Jewish people territory after World War Two, Germany would have been the prime candidate.

Honestly, there's so much you could learn about this if you genuinely wanted to. I recommend Izzeldin Abuelaish's book 'I Shall Not Hate' as a starting point. Abuelaish 'has devoted his life to medicine and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shall-Not-Hate-Doctors-Journey/dp/1408822091

Entirely up to you, but if you make obviously false claims like 'apartheid state' or state as fact that Israel hasn't engaged with the peace process at all, then my first assumption is going to be that you're deliberately lying.

To be fair, it's possible you maybe just a) live in an echo chamber, or b) are quite new to the topic and uninformed.

Either way, if you are too delicate to cope with being picked up when you post falsehoods on a public forum, I can't help that.

I'm not going to gently avoid picking you up on these - people's safety (including mine and my family's) are quite literally at stake here. You'll have seen the reports, I assume, about the current threats to British Jews in the current febrile atmosphere?

So no, I'm not going to give these lies a free pass, just because you claim that elsewhere you post posts that are more pro-Israel (no idea if you do or not - I don't have the time or inclination to read through your other previous posts to find out, and it wouldn't make this post any truer, even if you had been accurate in a different post.)

So stay or don't stay. Flounce off if you wish. if I don't care either way.

Just leaving this here:

http://itisapartheid.org/Documents_pdf_etc/outlineapartheidproofedbyc8.15.12.pdf

The occupied territories are a shit show and I'm certainly not claiming the Israeli government is free from sin here. If you pushed me I'd still argue that despite the awful, and it is awful and inexcusable, treatment some people in the territories have received, it is still no worse than the people in Gaza get from their own government and better than Hammas would afford Jews overall.

And Israel control their own border, which to be fair they need to, given their neighbours are reasonably determined to kill them. That doesn't mean the territory beyond it is under their control. I acknowledge things such as the aid routes that pass through Israeli space but Hammas could have negotiated with Egypt and actually do have a considerable amount of trade and travel through the border on that side, Gaza has always had options and has had quite a bit of international aid they could have used to increase their independent infrastructure.

Do you know how war works? Nothing is fair in war.

of course they are being cut off. Of course they are going to be demolished. Of course they are going to be collectively leveled.

Just saw in the news there's been discussion of an exchange of some of the elderly female hostages for female Palestinian prisoners.