Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

[Lieblingsessen]

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

Well said.

The border between Egypt and Gaza is 11km long!

Unless Gazans are extremely obese, I reckon you could fit a fair number through that 11km distance, no??

FFS.

I often look at world politics like relationships

Even here on this thread there are issues of coercive control (countries who are manipulated by the power and money of the US who feel they darent challenge or go against Israel with regard to borders).

The bully and gaslighter which is the Israeli government. Both Palestine and Israel are perpetrators and victims of abuse.

@cakeorwine

Has it occurred to you that Israel as a state had all the fishing rights on those waters and had to grant the right when Gaza became a state? This is international relations, not a neighbour’s fence boundary dispute.

Israel had to grant a hostile state access to the sea and chose to limit it to, I would imagine, have more control over the smuggling of rockets and weapons of mass destruction onto the place that has sworn to wipe it off the map.

The events of the last few days just go to prove that Hamas is very serious about its aims. Perhaps if they wanted peace they could stop stock piling weapons and start taking care of their population. They are the bloody government. Maybe try negotiating with Israel for larger fishing grounds- like every other country in the world. But you can’t do that when you refuse to talk to your neighbours because you consider them sub-human.

No, but people will tell you you are

Are you saying the British didn't offer them both a state during the 1930s and 1940's?

No. Britain did - ref the Balfour Declaration. But Britain also resisted the immediate foundation of an Israeli state, and denounced Zionist paramilitaries as terrorists. Details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) On 12 January 1947, Lehi members drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa killing four and injuring 140, in what has been called 'the world's first true truck bomb'. Following the bombing of the British embassy in Rome, in October 1946, a series of operations against targets in the United Kingdom were launched. There was also Irgun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun On August 26, 1939, the Irgun killed Ralph Cairns, a British police officer... et cetera.

Dhimmitude was a special 'protected' status for Jews and Christians. Dhimmis paid one kind of tax and Muslims another. By the standards of how some cultures treat minorities, it wasn't all that bad.

This. It’s totally backwards and chilling that they think their behaviour is somehow heroic. It’s sick.

I didn’t misconstrue the post about fishing. I was mocking it for being ridiculous.

That's it, really? Yikes.

Didn't you say a minute ago it was just a tax though? Were the yellow stars intended to protect them? And if so, from whom? And how did their testimony in court being worth less than a muslim's protect them? And, again, who or what did it protect them from?

Is that why some of your posts get deleted then?

Couldn't give a stuff about historical Muslim customs, to be honest. We're talking about the present situation, and the political/military events that led up to it.

"every day this past year, at least 1 Palestinian has been killed in cold blood"

As we're talking systemic racism, are you going to go on to tell us how many Jews have been murdered in co0ld blood by by Palestinian terrorists this year? I can tell you it's been around 1,000 just this last weekend - yet you have the cold-blooded cheek to label the Israelis as the racists, after the events of last weekend?

Have you no shame??! FFS.

The 'open air prison and frankly laughable 'hundreds dying every day' - really? - I refer you back again to the marvellous #TheGazaYouDontSee hashtag, if you are genuinely unaware of the luxury lifestyle enjoyed by so many in Gaza. And if indeed you're unaware of all the lovely holidays that Palestinians enjoy when they leave their supposed 'prison'. Imshin on X: "@muhammadshehad2 Lies! The border of Gaza with Egypt is open. Gazans go on holiday to Sharm al-Sheikh, Istanbul and Dubai! Hundreds emigrate daily. #leavingGaza Hamas and cronies are wealthy and live in wealth and prosperity in Gaza on stolen aid. #TheGazaYouDontSee t.co/GBsIh0Gx1u t.co/HUATqTNBj9" / X (twitter.com)

Why do supporters of the Palestinians have to lie about this stuff??

What was that?

You are saying you misinterpreted my post and you are withdrawing your comments about "The Jews controlling the fish" conspiracy?

Oh but I'm trying to find out what caused it, which obviously requires an understanding of history. All of it. Lots of people really want to understand that, we discussed it on the other thread. I'm really trying to find pro-Palestinian people who can answer some of these questions so I can hear both sides of the argument, but it's proving incredibly difficult, as you demonstrate.

I'm not sure if it's that you're admitting you don't know the answers or you're saying you do but you don't want to talk about it. Either way, hopefully someone else has answers.

So Jews being second class citizens - 'you're not that interested'.

Palestinians being second class citizens - oh woe, how evil is Israel.

But not a hypocrite at all.

You are the one who said "The Jews control the fish"

"Have never heard ‘Jews control where all the fish go’ before but you meet someone gullible every day."

@cakeorwine

Nope, I was mocking your point because it was ridiculous.

Has it occurred to you not to interpret everything through the lens of your own prejudices?

People on this thread a) have no shame and b) think we're all stupid.

How you seriously think after the events of last weekend that you can claim that Israel is the abuser of the poor Palestinians and the 'bully'?

Did you just not read any news at all?

Did you miss the nearly 1,000 Israelis brutally murdered in cold blood only 2 days ago, by genocidal Palestinian terrorists?

The only one doing any gaslighting here is you, dear.

What was ridiculous?

I pointed out that the Israeli Navy control and limit the access to the sea off Gaza for fishermen.

They have expanded the zone from 6 to 15 NM now - so they can catch more fish but it's still tightly controlled, fishing boats are seized and fishermen are intimidated and shot at.

On 1 April 2019, the Israeli authorities expanded the permissible fishing area along the southern and central parts of Gaza’s coast from six up to 15 nautical miles (NM) offshore, the furthest distance that Gaza’s fishers have been permitted to access since 2000. Access to the northern areas along the coast remain more limited at up to 6 NM, well below the 20 NM agreed under the Oslo Accords

Gaza’s fisheries: record expansion of fishing limit and relative increase in fish catch; shooting and detention incidents at sea continue | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory (ochaopt.org)

Do you feel that this needs ridiculing when it's pointed out?

So Jews being second class citizens - 'you're not that interested'.

Jews and Christians would be Dhimmis. 'People of the book.' As you probably know - members of the Abrahamic faiths that led to Islam. They had a special status above members of polytheistic religions.

I'm trying to find out what caused it, which obviously requires an understanding of history. All of it. Lots of people really want to understand that, we discussed it on the other thread. I'm really trying to find pro-Palestinian people who can answer some of these questions

You don't seem to be asking a question. You want Muslims universally to apologise for 'dhimmitude'. Funnily enough, right wing groups in Britain have the same obsession.

https://devtracker.fcdo.gov.uk/countries/PS

Our own DFID have been working with Palestine for a long time for those interested

And it seems that the zone can be changed at whim

Israel further reduces Gaza fishing zone after fire balloons - France 24

Israel reduced the fishing zone it allows off Gaza for the second time in a week, an official said Tuesday, following a spate of attacks by Palestinians using balloons to spark fires.
A spokeswoman for COGAT, the Israeli defence ministry unit that oversees such regulations, said Gazans would be allowed to fish up to six nautical miles offshore "until further notice."

(2019)

I wonder what will happen now?

Wow now I have heard it all, Palestinians are committing the genocide!

What about the villages obliterated in 1948? What about a whole map of a country renamed? Whole towns and cities renamed? What about the fact there are a group of people called settlers who go and settle on newly claimed land?

Gaza is not occupied. Israel withdrew a long time ago.Hamas is the elected leadership, albeit in 2016. Israel has the right and must do for security, to close their border with Gaza. Israel is under attack from Gaza. Israel has no obligation to supply Gaza with water or electricity. They are at war with Gaza.
any humanitarian crisis as a result of this needs to be aimed at hamas who have never pretended to less than a shit about their own people who they rule with an iron fist.
hamas knew Israel would do this. How much aid money have they spent on their own water supply and generators as contingency. None.

Everything you said applies word for word to Palestinians (for decades). But somehow they are expected to take on the chin and Israel can annihilate every Palestinian baby they kept prisoners in Gaza like animals in a zoo without right?

We shouldn't be trying to give Hamas excuses. We shouldn't be trying to give Israel excuses.

I said that actually.

And I was quoting your post. You said "He was talking to the fishermen who were talking about how far they could fish and how the waters did not have much fish in them. All under the eye of the Israeli Navy who controlled how far they could go."

The last-mentioned noun that the final "they" referred to was therefore the "fish" in the previous sentence.

It's not my fault you are incapable of writing using correct grammar to say what you mean. If you write nonsense, expect to have the piss taken out of you! Maybe you should learn to write what you mean, instead of expecting your reader to figure out you meant something entirely different!