Collective Punishment - No water, no food, no medicines

[Lieblingsessen]

I do not condone whatsoever what the Hamas attacks on civilians in Israel or their ideology

But surely, Israel laying siege to Gaza, preventing innocent civilians from accessing water, food, medicines, electricity for hospital equipment, is not justifiable. To collectively punish civilians who have no control over what Hamas or their government does. This is medieval.

Where is the outcry on the mainstream media about this? Surely it is not being anti-semitic to call out Israel, that retaliation is not unexpected, but collective punishment is horrendous.

I didnt expect Israel to feed the people of Gaza. But I expect that in Israel as well as in Egypt, there are well established routes that humanitarian agencies used. The fact that the Israeli government has made such an issue of declaring that food, water, medicines and other vital supplies for civilians will be stopped, I would assume that civilians get their previously meagre supplies via Israel by international charities etc.

I have not referred to the Jewish people at all. As I can differentiate between a race and a government. Not all Israeli people support the actions of their government, and not all Palestinians support the actions of Hamas, just like in the UK and elsewhere with their governments.

This may be a war between different ideologies, but we should not sit here and accept war crimes, without calling it out. Shame on Hamas for their terroism and shame on the Israeli government for their collective punishment.

I’ve seen a lot of ‘I’m not an anti-Semite but…’ followed by lots of anti-Semitic tropes on this thread.

Some of the conspiracy theories are gaga.

Today I learned that Israel has perfectly normal fishing territories- like every other country in the world- and people consider that to be a ‘prison’.

Have never heard ‘Jews control where all the fish go’ before but you meet someone gullible every day.

Perhaps look it up. Trade in goods at Rafah in April 2022 was $55m per month. On top of that Hamas was paid levies of $14m per month. We now know what those levies have been used for.

This is above ground trade. Below ground - in 3,000 odd tunnels - Hamas and Islamic State had been moving weapons and some of todays terrorists into Gaza before Egypt destroyed the tunnels.

Without repeating my above post which clearly explains why Egypt hasn't opened the border and anyone with a reasonable grasp of this very complex history would know, it's because of US aid.
I wish Egypt would open the border- but Israel gets the most attention as most of the border is with Israel, not Egypt.

Well I'm not really asking why you today would oppose it. I'm asking why they did. They didn't object to the decision of that distant imperial power to give them a state on the way out.

As I recall it, the British opposed the rush to create an Israeli state in 1948, and called the Zionist paramilitaries terrorists (e.g. the Stern Gang, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)). Then war broke out with Arab states also opposing this aggressive new state in their midst. Things have never settled down since.

And would it not have been quite a nice thing to do as a way to say sorry for the whole centuries of dhimmitude business?

What about it? Jews and Christians, as 'people of the book', had to pay a tax. Christian countries were not always known for their tolerance either.

Multiple reports dispute that Gaza has either access to or control over shared water sources and this has been the case for decades.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/how-israel-weaponises-water-gaza-strip

https://www.btselem.org/topic/water

Can you let us all know how you know that for a fact @pleasehelpwi3

Is this something that people ‘just know’ on the internet or something you have actual proof for?

Why do people keep implying the border between Eygpt and Gaza is closed? It’s been open all year with over 450k crossings recorded by UN data up to July of this year. So plenty of people come and go from Gaza. There was a VIP package set up in 2019 allowing those who paid to get a faster experience through the crossing.

The UN website also tracks the goods taken through the crossing which includes construction and food. So there will still be a border in which Gaza can get supplies assuming Egypt doesn’t close the border. There are restrictions on goods into Gaza that can be used for military purposes - for good reason as we’ve seen. However, we know the tunnels are the route Hamas use to get these in anyway.
As other posters said Gaza has its own desalination plants. AFAIK these were funded by private enterprise within Gaza as Hamas have never helped pay for such infrastructure (funny that).

The UN website also confirms the process to use this crossing - nothing to do with Israel.

Palestinians wishing to exit Gaza via Egypt must register with the local Palestinian authorities two to four weeks in advance. People may also apply to the Egyptian authorities, using the services of a private company. The procedures and decisions by both authorities lack transparency. Approved passengers exit through the Rafah Crossing, which is controlled and operated by the Egyptian authorities from Sundays to Thursdays

Hamas rape and murder Palestinians too.

No but they shot dead children in the street.

Israeli forces shot and killed Ahmad Abdulnaser Adnan Rabi, 12, on October 7, 2023, near the occupied Palestinian city of Qalqilya

48 children shot dead in 2023.

Beating up the equivalent of frail old grandmas and grandpas who remember life before the occupation. The army has done that. Countless videos of them walking around Al Aqsa physically pushing, beating old people going to prayers.

No woman in her right mind is going to condone rape.

I agree OP, and I don’t feel your original post deserved to be the focus of this kind of anger. This seems to be what happens when you try to express a neutral opinion on this issue.

homes invaded woman raped, children killed and also kidnapped being used as hostages… what exactly do you expect Isreal to do?

Palestinians have been expelled from their homes for decades , Please look up Sheik Jarrah East Jerusalem .

61 Palestinian children died in 2022,

just last year a prominent female TV reporter Sherien abu aqleh was shot dead by an Israeli snipper.

what happened on Saturday was so horrible but it’s shameful and inhuman to just react now when this has been going on for decades for the Palestinians.

Is it anti-semitic to say that the Israeli Navy have a blockade of the sea off Gaza and control how far the fishermen of Gaza can fish off Gaza?

It seems they increased it from 6 to 15 NM off sea

Gaza’s fisheries: record expansion of fishing limit and relative increase in fish catch; shooting and detention incidents at sea continue | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory (ochaopt.org)

They enforce fishing zones strictly

"The Israeli navy enforces fishing limits by, among other means, opening live fire at fishing boats, resulting in casualties and damage; forcing fishers to jump into the sea and swim towards Israeli vessels, where they are detained; and confiscating boats and fishing equipment. These practices discourage some fishers from fully exploiting the permissible fishing area even when expanded."

That is not what that poster said - or meant - and you know it.

Hammas doesn't care about Palestinians, there have been no election for years.
Women's rights are non existent.

Your post is simply a supposition and is a reduction of one single part of a very complex situation.

Israel 'gets the most attention' is exactly what I am pointing out. It has nothing to do with the size of the border however - that is absurd.

Do you know how long the border between the West Bank and Jordan is?

You know that if you say

"the fact that Israel has created an open air prison in Gaza for the last 16 years and completely disengaged with any sort of meaningful peace process"

doesn't actually make either of those two things facts?

As they're both blatant lies?

Gaza is nothing like an open air prison - well, not unless prisons are extremely luxurious and you can go out of them when you choose. Have you seen this Twitter user, Imshin (@imshin) / X (twitter.com), who regularly posts pictures of Gaza's luxury shopping malls, apartments, restaurants, resorts etc, using the hashtag #TheGazaYouDontSee? I recommend it - here's a selection:

Imshin on X: "Our favorite Hamas minister Dr. Moufeed al-Hassayna celebrating his son's wedding at the 5 star Ayan Hotel (formerly Mashtal) in Gaza. #TheGazaYouDontSee t.co/b4jNyRfGGV t.co/gcblz3X85X" / X (twitter.com)

Lionessque18 🇮🇱📖🩺🔯 on X: "@MariamBarghouti 'Starved'. Would that be in between enjoying a High Street addiction, the hotel buffets, candies covered in literal gold, sweets and cake shops everywhere and an obesity epidemic in both Gaza an Judea & Samaria? #TheGazaYouDontSee t.co/KKkn2DMYzV" / X (twitter.com)

The Giant Lab on X: "A Gazan woman spends the evening at the new Al-Qalaa (TheCastle) Café built on stilts in the sea on Gaza City seafront. #TheGazaYouDontSee #Imshin t.co/q2jUsQh00A" / X (twitter.com)

I recommend it - fascinating to see how luxurious the lifestyle is. Though you may be sadly disappointed!

As far as the lack of engagement with the peace process, that's a nice line in DARVO, given Hamas has NEVER engaged with the peace process at all. Whereas Israel has, repeatedly.

Remember that if you have to lie to defend your 'side', it probably wasn't worth defending anyway??

The whole "Palestinians did it to themselves" or "Look what Palestinians are making Israel do" is sickening. Absolutely sickening. Abusers' gaslighting, really.

@SovietSpy

I suspect that the histrionics about the Egyptian crossing come from a desperation to make Gaza the plucky little state that is being bullied by the big bad guys- and therefore okay to have sympathy with.

I find it sad that such a complex and devastating situation can be reduced by bone heads to Palestine= Good and justified and Israel= evil and wrong.

Not sure how these people can’t see that they are directly feeding into the division that has led to this situation in the first place.

Examples of Palestinian children being used as human shields by the Israeli army. 20 cases AFTER the Israeli high court said it was illegal.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/palestinian_children_being_used_as_human_shields

Its really quite incredible that with all this talk of bingo and tropes, this is the second poster to misuse that post, it was clear as day what the original poster meant by Israeli navy controlling where 'they' go, I cant believe the manipulation of the words to then try to claim anti semitism

I feel that 'anti semitism' is the new 'transphobic', just calling everything everywhere antisemitic doesnt make it so.

Are you saying the British didn't offer them both a state during the 1930s and 1940's?

Do you genuinely believe dhimmitude was just 'a tax'? Because on the other thread we were told that it also involved things like yellow stars, bans on intermarriage, that Jewish testimony did not count against a Muslim and other things I can't remember. I did google the yellow star bit and it's true - link below. So I suspect the rest is also.

And even if it was merely a tax on non-muslims, that was acceptable? I don't participate in whataboutery ever under any circumstances so I'm going to just ignore that bit. What I was asking was, would letting the Jews have their state too in the 1930s not have been a very decent way to apologize for the dhimmitude?

Have there ever been apologies for dhimmitude? Reparations of any kind for it? Books written about how it came about how to make sure it could never happen again? That kind of thing?

Yellow badge - Wikipedia

I would be impressed if the two posters who misinterpreted the post said that they had misinterpreted it and withdrew their comments.

How should Palestinian respond to the way Israel treats them?

By getting rid of their terrorist leadership, so that more reasonable people can be brought to the table to negotiate in good faith

Not as easy as that? Well maybe they should have thought of that before electing terrorists in the first place

Thank you for caring. This is what systemic racism is,really. Without going even into the root cause of occupation and the 16 year blockade of Gaza, every day this past year, at least 1 Palestinian has been killed in cold blood, (settler running them over, bullet to the head from a soldier), leaving aside the hundreds dying ever day from living in an open air prison without access to proper health care, food and essentials.
There's been no condemnation. I'm from that part of the world and feel quite depressed to see how little European powers value our lives. I'm drawing some hope from citizens such as yourself who clearly see there's something wrong here.