To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

[sweetblue]

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

Would be ... sort of, considering ... nice if Bibi listened, I guess?

Comparatively speaking!

Ground invasions are "hell on earth". I have experienced one 20 years ago. That is PRECISELY why I feel so deeply for people - on EITHER side!

There is something uniquely fucked up about cowering on the floor, in the dark, thinking "I hope they don't realise we're even here. But if they do: I hope they blow up the door and hold us all at gunpoint and just ... give me a fighting chance at convincing them not to shoot me ... but if they don't: I hope I just die in the initial explosion and relatively fast!"

No human deserves this!

But Bibi has to listen to Joe Biden because Biden has the upper hand - first plane-load of ammunition arrived in Israel today You want that ammunition? then do as i say call off the blockade

But it's all a bit fucked up isn't it - here, you can kill as many people as you want with our lovely ammunition but don't embaress us killing 2.3 million by dehydration before the end of the week

Hell on earth as you say

@Efacsen, you ARE right! Just so ... cynical!

I suppose, on balance, and if push came to shove, I would much prefer even bleeding out [relatively] slowly and painfully due to an untreated gunshot wound to my thigh over an agonising death from thirst. Or something horrifying like cholera, picked up by "any water available".

There are just no good answers beyond "everyone please attend human empathy, for beginners", and fast. But they wont!

True. Extremism is the issue here. I feel for civilians in both sides.

Corbyn stands with palestine which to any take a break readers is code for supporting Hammas- bad move by Labour here

Just to point out it's not a move "by Labour". He had the Whip withdrawn in 2020 and since then is an independent MP, not a Labour one.

Starmer's wife and children are Jewish and the Shadow Cabinet have condemned Hamas's actions.

I'm really sorry I've only just realised that Shani Louk is actually thought to be alive - completely passed me by and then I mis-read/mis-interpreted your post as being about what MIGHT happen IF she were alive No wonder you think I'm a psychopath!

And some good at heart person/people in Gaza took her to hospital rather than dumping her unconscious body because it was of no use to them any more - quite extraordinary. I hope they'll be able to evacuate her to a safer hospital with specialist neuro - and functioning utilities

You'll be pleased to hear that Biden has been chatting to his mate El-Sisi about his aid budget and there is hopefully a humanitarian safe passage incoming

US, Israel and Egypt discussing possible safe passage corridor

The US is talking with Israel and Egypt about the idea of a safe passage for Gaza civilians as Israel strikes the enclave after a deadly Hamas attack over the weekend, US national security adviser Jake Sullivan said on Tuesday.

Kobi Michael, a senior researcher at the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies (INSS), says he believes that Iran aims to create “a reality of war in order to exhaust Israeli society, in order to exhaust the Israel Defense Forces.”

“Here is the common denominator between the Iran strategy and the Hamas strategy. Therefore Iran is an asset for Hamas and Hamas is an asset for Iran."

Let's all not forget that Hamas have a history of using civilians and civilian infrastructure as shields against attacks as noted by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence and the UN, for example.

We know Hamas have stockpiled weapons at UN run schools and built tunnels underneath them in order to move explosives ahead of attacks on Israel too. In 2014 Chris Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency said after Hamas rockets were found in UN schools, "We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school. This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N. property.”

There is no reason to think Hamas wouldn't use hospitals as a launchpad for rockets and then use the propaganda from any Israeli attack to gain sympathisers.

Long, long gone are the days of conventional forces facing conventional forces in a clearly defined battlefield like in past history. Since post-WW2, warfare has changed due to the rise of organised guerilla terrorist groups who operate amongst the civilian population, pass themselves off as civilians until just before attacking, use schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure to launch attacks before trying to use that against States as Lawfare.

Terrorist groups are largely to blame for civilians being caught up in conflict since they break down the distinction between military and civilians which is prohibited under International Humanitarian Law.

Palestinian and Israeli lives would be far better off if Hamas didn't exist. I stand with the Palestinians and Israelis who oppose Hamas' terrorism.

It wasn't just Jewish blood. Don't write the other victims out of history.

Yes, absolutely correct to make the point that Jeremy Corbyn is not part of the UK Labour Party.

UK Labour under Starmer has RIGHTLY condemned Hamas and I've no doubt a Starmer Gov would continue to condemn Hamas.

The political party Hamas' terrorism is a big problem for is Provisional Sinn Féin who, along with Provisional IRA, have always been supporters of Hamas. As part of an international terrorist network, PIRA trained with Hamas in Gaddafi's Libya. PIRA also trained FARC-EP in Colombia who attacked USA civilians yet PIRA had a policy of not attacking USA citizens. From 9/11 onwards, Americans and the world woke up to the international terrorist network and set about trying to dismantle it.

Republic of Ireland voters for Provisional Sinn Féin will need to take another closer look at the party's history. Will they do it? I've my doubts. Northern Ireland ones certainly won't be doing that.

Jesus- you might want to check your anger at me, given/recognised - but fundamentally I’m agreeing with you. Save your anger

All the evidence points to over 3,000 years of Jewish civilisation in what is now known as Israel.

@HeidiInTheBigCity

"That's just in case "generic cutting hospitals off power" wasn't fucked up enough for you just yet!

What the fuck is wrong with people? Just ... stop de-humanising your fellow humans, if you would, please!"

+++

"Generic cutting hospitals off power" confers no military advantage to the Israelis. Whereas cutting off power and fuel does reduce Hamas ability to wage war through disrupting their communications, transport, ability to manufacture and supply weapons.

Unfortunately it is not possible for the Israelis to selectively disconnect power to say Hamas communications centres but not disconnect power to hospitals.

Yes cutting off power will cause hardship and deaths amongst the civilian population as all wars do and whilst deeply regrettable it does not change the fact that cutting power is a legitimate military tactic.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise

Just a reminder that Hamas’s stated aim is the murder of all Jews and the obliteration of the State of Israel.

Whilst the first part of your paragraph is accurate, your final two sentences aren't.

Hamas is not "retaliating" to defend the Palestinian people - they couldn't give a damn about them. They aren't freedom fighters, they are terrorists and murderers. They want to maintain the conflict because this supports their own power base.

In the meantime Palestinian and Israeli civilians are being killed, raped and held hostage on both sides. A nation is under siege now, and the ones who suffer most will be the very old, the very young, and women.

The whole situation is barbaric and beyond heartbreaking.

Just a reminder that Hamas’s stated aim is the murder of all Jews and the obliteration of the State of Israel.

That is Hamas - not Palestine. They don't speak for all Palestinians any more than the IRA spoke for all Ireland, We could find equivalencies in most nations.

The IRA’s stated aim was to remove Northen Ireland from the UK, not obliterate the UK and murder its entire population. Yes Hamas is not Palestine but it is the de facto governing authority.

Worth remembering too, that Israel is a secular state, not a religious one.

@Emotionalsupportviper

What you're is missing is that PIRA and UVF didn't control vast swathes of Northern Ireland.

Hamas controls Gaza.

Because of that reality most Catholics and Protestants didn't support these terrorist groups.

On the other hand, because Hamas controls Gaza most Palestinians support them.

Immediately, your comparison with Northern Ireland is defeated.

The Northern Ireland conflict couldn't end until PIRA was defeated. Why?

If the Loyalists had stopped, the conflict would have gone on precisely because PIRA largely ignored them. Stats show they barely killed Loyalist terrorists and also had a deal not to kill each other's leadership.

If the British Army had given in to PIRA demands and left, the conflict would have become a full blown civil war. So wouldn't have stopped.

That left one final option - defeat PIRA to end the conflict. And this is what happened in the end as I've extensively covered on other thread's.

As an example, attached is PIRAs former US Marine John Crawley admitting PIRA were defeated across the board.

The Belfast Agreement was possible because PIRA had nowhere else to go. In fact, they got NONE of their long held key core demands in it!

By PIRAs own admission over the years, anything less than a full British withdrawal and Northern Ireland out of the UK constitutes defeat.

PIRA stupidly believed they could push the UK Government & British Army into the Irish Sea. They thought if they could do that, they could just turn on Protestants and Catholics who strongly opposed them.

Just delusional!

For the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to end, Hamas will have to be defeated somehow.

I'm afraid you're drawing a false equivalence between support for PIRA and Hamas. They're far from being equivalent situations.

Apologies. I'm not angry with you. I'm just very bored with the "the unworthy Jews need to be grateful for what the rest of the world generously bestowed on them" trope, which usually ends with "and therefore need to be nicer to the Palestinians (who incidentally were, are, and continue to be, trying to destroy them) than anyone else needs to be, or has been.

FTS.

No it isn't. A quick Google would show you that!

Well I can assure you I’m absolutely not of that opinion, apologies if it came over like that.

The Jewish people have my absolute respect for maintaining their culture and identity through millennia of persecution, they have had to fight all that time to keep that, often against terrible odds.

I agree with most of this, there were Jews and Arabs living in Israel/ Palestine long before the Second World War.

It is illegal, the UN agrees with it being illegal but nothing is happening to combat it.

The reason why ‘nothing is happening’ is because most people know the representatives of a large part of Palestine had a stated aim to destroy all of Israel and create an entirely Muslim state. They have since officially stated they would accept a 2 state solution yet reject every option. Most people know Israel and the Jewish people would be under constant threat from the current Palestine no matter what happens.

Yes a couple of omissions : the representatives of Palestine have in practice repeatedly rejected the two state solution and their stated aim is the obliteration of the State of Israel and the murder of all Jews. How could there be any negotiation?

Where are the Jews supposed to go?

Exactly, this constant persecution of Jews throughout the last 2500 odd years almost seems like the only way for them to be safe would be to have their own state - oh wait!!!

Hamas want to obliterate all Jews. We’ve seen how they treat Jews. It’s unacceptable, it’s a repetition of history. The world needs to stand up and stop this happening. If Palestine can’t deal with the two state solution maybe it should be one state - Israel.

The Jewish people are in Israel because they were driven out of Europe by the Holocaust. Hamas want to drive them out of the Middle East with another Holocaust.

This.

Hamas use their own people. They have grown more and more powerful, have more missiles, and the support and funding from Iran. They must be stopped.

They appear to be starting with the North of gaza wanting people to leave that area first so it can be cleared of Hamas.