Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

326 replies

sweetblue · 09/10/2023 18:44

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
ArseMenagerie · 10/10/2023 22:41

Hamas are deranged.
I don’t understand the comments about Israel cutting power, if your neighbour was using your power supply ( even though they could get power from their mates at next door but one) and then slaughtered your citizens, wouldn’t you cut them off??

Maatandosiris · 10/10/2023 22:45

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/10/2023 22:30

@Maatandosiris, I know that I happen to be on the record as "it´s complicated!". And it is! But you might be making this a little "too complicated" (not meaning you, personally - I am perfectly aware this is "a thing" within this particular context!).

Saying "they have been fighting" for >2500 years over the land we now call "Israel" or "Palestine" is, technically, not wrong. But then, neither is the same claim wrong about Britain! The Celts, Romans, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings, Alfread the Great and William the Conquerer defeating Harold Godwinson in battle! Harald Hadrada. William Wallace. The Jacobean wars! The Irish "toubles" ... even the legendary King Arthur does not go far enough back (and he probably never existed as such - and yet: we do not actually know anything!). The Scotish independence movement! You could, quite legitimately, claim Britain "has been fought over "for >2500 years", and you[d be quite correct, too! Heck, Im saying this as a "probably a bit Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Viking, and Norman - itself French meets Viking" person.

The notion of "national souvereignty" would not have existed 500 BC, neither would the idea of such a thing as "national identity". We have the 19th century to "thank" for both ideas (that have, on the whole, not been particularly useful in the field of "how do we make sure we don[t bloody murder each other?"). Thats not to say prejudice against Jews did not exist before that - it did! It just is not useful to frame the whole thing as some kind of a national struggle since time immemorial (I do know there is a book by that title, I have read it, and I am not a fan).

We shall have to somehow arrive to a frame of reference that includes "what happened to my, my parents, and my grandparents" if we are going to fix this! For no other reason as "pure pragmatism and limitation of scope to the mere impossible". Do not be mistaken! This will be complicated enough, including survivors of both the Holocaust and the Nakba, as it still does!

With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree. I don’t think anything is comparable to the sustained persecution the Jews have faced for such a long period. Yes there have been instances for a hundred years or so, but no people’s have faced what the Jewish people have faced over such a prolonged period.

Yes the idea of nation states is fairly modern but that is the context in which it was decided how best to protect the Jewish people by giving them their own state where they couldn’t be thrown out and persecuted.

The real mistake was the Gaza Strip, it is isolated. It was always at risk through its geography and the ill will between Jews and Muslims from basically the creation of Islam. I’m not sure how much this was factored in.

Oioicaptain · 10/10/2023 22:46

The history is massively complex and Wikipedia is not the best on the topic. The BBC news page gives good background info. If that is too complex then they do one aimed at kids (which is marginally easier to understand, but kids would struggle with it). Those are your best starting points.

1dayatatime · 10/10/2023 22:53

ArseMenagerie · 10/10/2023 22:41

Hamas are deranged.
I don’t understand the comments about Israel cutting power, if your neighbour was using your power supply ( even though they could get power from their mates at next door but one) and then slaughtered your citizens, wouldn’t you cut them off??

By cutting their power you reduce Hamas military ability to continue to wage war.

Yet there are still many posters who would argue that this is a war crime.

Lemonyfuckit · 10/10/2023 22:54

OP I don't know if you listen to podcasts at all but I listened to Rory Stewart's and Alistair Campbell's podcast The Rest Is Politics - they did an 'emergency' episode this morning on the situation in Israel and started with Rory Stewart giving a synopsis (whilst recognising that it's a very complex and nuanced situation) of the history (ie the past 3000 years of what is now the state of Israel) and the history of the conflict between the Israeli's and the Palestinians which I found very useful if you're looking to learn about the situation.

*by nuanced I don't mean there's nuance to the atrocities of Hamas, a terrorist organisation.

Museya15 · 10/10/2023 23:04

Wouldyouguess · 10/10/2023 20:06

commit this unjustifiable and horrendous attack.

Not unlike what the Israeli army has been doing for decades, but without being branded terrorists.

Tit for tat, you lose the argument.

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 23:06

I think cutting electricity also would affect medical equipment, plus a number of facilities such as internet, phone, refrigeration, streetlighting etc. So would have an effect on civilians as hospitals won't be able to operate properly, people can't hear news or contact family, food can't be stored, the streets will be dark and hazardous with collapsed buildings - just trying to imagine the civilian impact, Although cutting off food and medicine is worse imo.

JustACountryMusicGirlInCowboyBoots · 10/10/2023 23:19

Why have Jews been persecuted for thousands of years? It's madness.

Efacsen · 10/10/2023 23:21

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 23:06

I think cutting electricity also would affect medical equipment, plus a number of facilities such as internet, phone, refrigeration, streetlighting etc. So would have an effect on civilians as hospitals won't be able to operate properly, people can't hear news or contact family, food can't be stored, the streets will be dark and hazardous with collapsed buildings - just trying to imagine the civilian impact, Although cutting off food and medicine is worse imo.

Loss of electricity also has a major impact on water management - electric pumps are needed to supply the upper floors of blocks of flats, for de-salination plants to function and for sewage to be pumped away

There was an interesting article in yesterdays Guardian about this

UsernamenotavailableBob · 10/10/2023 23:23

In the modern era the short hand version is Christianity and Islam blame Jews for the death of Jesus.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/10/2023 23:33

@Teddleshon, again, that is - sort of - true (but also: not quite, and not quite in the sense of "why Israel should be beyond reproach in 2023"):

First things first: "Jews" as such and in the sense that we know them today are a much younger construct - arguably! I am not a religious scholar, just a bored woman who reads a lot! - than what you might imagine! "I am the lord, thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me" - these days typically taken to mean "polytheistic society and wider setting - just: this one deity, El, YHWH, Hashim (which just means "the name, actually), God, ... whatever as an atheist I really do not mind what people call it! demands primacy (not exclusivity)".

Did anti-semitism exist in classical antiquity? Oh, yeah, but sure! Neither Greeks nor Romans were particulary keen on Jews! But then, they were not on Christians either (pre-Constatine, at least). Their whole "thing", was, essentially: "religion as state" - which made them exceedingly tolerant towards any group that was happy, or at least grudgingly okay, to also pay lip service to the Graeco-Roman pantheon while doing [insert: whatever the hell you please!] as a main gig! Not so much when that was not the case. See also: Christians, lions! That was more of a perceived political than a religious issue, as we see it today! "Jesus AND Jupiter" would arguably have been quite alright!

The middle ages! Oh, boy! Yes, anti-semitism central! Definitely! At least as far as Europe is concerned! Ferdinand ans Isabella did not just "liberate" Spain from the Moors (read: Muslim Spaniards of mostly North African origin - several generations ago - that is basically as though we asked black British Caribbean people to go back to Barbados; and I am hoping most of us are NOT in the BNP here!), they also did not take too kindly to Jews! Nor did anyone else in medieval Europe. "Blood libel" and "well poisoning" originate here!

In the meantime, and within the general context of "people fucking suck": the 8th century CE saw the establishment of Islam as a religion - and (I AM an atheist, and this matters!) - draw heavily upon both Judaism and what were arguably some fringe Christian movements (i.e. heretics). And, going by its canon, a lot of Islam is a lot more enlightened on the subject of "Christians and Jews" than what medieval Christianity took as a view of its fellow Abrahamitic religions. Undoubtedly, someone will immediately be along to quote some of the more icky passages in a second, but: on balance, if you had to pick you most certainly would want to be a Jew in medieval, moorish Andalus over a Christian in Rome under Nero (that whole "human candle" thing may be biasing me here --- but that is apparently thought to be accurate by modern historians! Screw that! I WILL fight the lions! Just: do not candle me!).

And now, I have spent a lot of lines and words on the things I just meant "were not that important" in the grand scheme of things!

Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe REALLY went to town on the anti-semitism. 19th century Europe is when the social construct of "race", and thus racially coloured / motivated anti-semitism becomes a thing. We basically have these people to blame for "Jews have long noses and really like money*" - and all the horrors that followed.

What about Arabs, specifically Palestinians, then? Well, some 90% of the historical anti-semitism throughou the 20th century you will find is "actually a lot nicer than the Europeans" or "literally adopted from the Europeans", if we are going to be fair!

But also: yes, some >90% of Palestinians are arguably somewhat anti-semitic, at least. And this one, again, is not that straightforward: if someone controls your every move (putting it mildly), you will probably hate them! And if that same someone also happens to say "me = my religion = my ethnicity = my state" all the time, you may come to hate religion, ethnicity, state, ... I personally do not agree - but I also genuinely do not expect people to take a degree in sociology, political science, or philosophy to read a bloody press release!

The reverse is also true, starting with your typical Israeli calling Palestinians "Arabs". Tunisians are Arabs, too, as are Iraqis! Neither have a stake in wanting to live in Jenin. There IS such a thing a a distinct Palestinian national identity! Perhaps, the creation of Israel was, literally, a major factor in making it so (which would be ironic, but I suspect it was!). And I have genuinely heard as much hate speech (just read headlines from today ... "filthy animals" - WTAF?! I think you mean "humans, whose political opinions I have some serious beef with" ... hopefully!) from Israelis towards Palestinians as vice versa - if not more**)

  • yes, Jews etablished "banks" (or, at least: the predecessors of what we know as them today) in Europe - that IS, in fact, and was even then, a very good for business Idea ... it is just: it is Christian usury laws, that led to this. Not Jews. Never mind Muslims! ** Mandatory disclaimer: some 80% of Palestinians I personally know are academics - I would bloody HOPE they are capable of a reflected take!
UsernamenotavailableBob · 10/10/2023 23:38

You need to be aware that Judaism isn't just a religion but an ethnicity. A person can be ethnically Jewish but live a secular life. Under any genocidal oppressive regime ethnic Jews are as much a target as religious Jews.

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 23:38

Many thanks @Efacsen , you often seem to have relevant info. I thought there would be significant effects on essential services, but couldn't quite think how. Yes, that raises issues with diseases, typhoid maybe, and obviously no clean drinking water. I don't know why I think about it, but I'm so troubled by what they must be suffering, as well as the awful massacres in Israel, I can't seem to stop wondering what the effects will be.

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 00:04

ketchup07070 · 10/10/2023 23:38

Many thanks @Efacsen , you often seem to have relevant info. I thought there would be significant effects on essential services, but couldn't quite think how. Yes, that raises issues with diseases, typhoid maybe, and obviously no clean drinking water. I don't know why I think about it, but I'm so troubled by what they must be suffering, as well as the awful massacres in Israel, I can't seem to stop wondering what the effects will be.

There were 'only' 400,000 people in Gaza yesterday without water - so I imagine that supplies have not been cut as drastically as was threatened - as yet [tho' more infrastructure was destroyed overnight and today]

On Twitter [so open to question] were pics of a convoy of aid leaving Rafah

If people have no water at all for more than 2-3 days they will die particularly as temp was 30 deg today so the war would be over by the end of the week because all 2.3 million people in Gaza would be dead

IDK but personally I can't see that happening - Biden and every other world leader would not support that ? but the threat will soften up the Egyptian government to open the border to a huge number of refugees

ketchup07070 · 11/10/2023 00:28

@Efacsen I agree it won't get to the point of letting everyone die. I hope there's some efficient planning going on, because the margin for error sounds very tight. I imagine Egypt is really worried about how they will cope.

DownNative · 11/10/2023 00:29

1dayatatime · 10/10/2023 22:53

By cutting their power you reduce Hamas military ability to continue to wage war.

Yet there are still many posters who would argue that this is a war crime.

Yes, and a lot of people don't realise that under the Law Of Armed Conflict attacking electricity installations is not NECESSARILY a war crime.

That's because there CAN be a military advantage in taking them out. The reality is militaries around the world do require electricity power and this absolutely includes civilian electricity installations too. That's why it's legal to attack them for an advantage.

Hamas is no different, so it's legal to attack electricity installations to reduce their military capability to continue the conflict.

Yes, it will impact upon civilians. I don't think a conflict exists where civilians aren't impacted upon, injured or killed during. It would be ideal if it was possible to prevent during conflict, but we don’t live in an ideal world.

mushti · 11/10/2023 00:38

Maatandosiris · 10/10/2023 22:45

With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree. I don’t think anything is comparable to the sustained persecution the Jews have faced for such a long period. Yes there have been instances for a hundred years or so, but no people’s have faced what the Jewish people have faced over such a prolonged period.

Yes the idea of nation states is fairly modern but that is the context in which it was decided how best to protect the Jewish people by giving them their own state where they couldn’t be thrown out and persecuted.

The real mistake was the Gaza Strip, it is isolated. It was always at risk through its geography and the ill will between Jews and Muslims from basically the creation of Islam. I’m not sure how much this was factored in.

Yes the idea of nation states is fairly modern but that is the context in which it was decided how best to protect the Jewish people by giving them their own state where they couldn’t be thrown out and persecuted.

You might want to check your patronizing and infantilizing tone towards the Jewish people. The Holocaust proved to the Jews that nobody and nowhere were they safe under anyone else's protection. The State of Israel was fought for and paid for in Jewish blood in the War of Independence of 1948 against the combined armies of Jordan, Egypt and Syria; The US employed an arms embargo against all sides, and the UK armed the Jordanian Arab legion, which was commanded by British officers.

Israeli statehood wasn't "given" by anyone, it was earned. In Jewish blood. And it continues to be paid for, in Jewish blood.

DownNative · 11/10/2023 00:38

beachcitygirl · 10/10/2023 20:09

No it's not.

There was one Palestinian presidential election in 2005

and essentially Hamas got most of the votes (44.45% of the vote, vs. Fatah 41.43%), but this immediately led to the Fatah–Hamas conflict (2006–07)

and international sanctions against Hamas, some of which persist till today.
Essentially Hamas won a mandate to govern Gaza till 2014 but when polls showed that Fatah would win if an election was held in 2014 Hamas decided that it was not prudent to hold an election at all. Hamas is therefore currently governing Gaza without a mandate.
The internationally recognized Palestinian government is the Palestinian National Unity Government of March 2007

. It is recognized by practically all governments, including Israel.

When Hamas were formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A minority do not support them.

At the same time, Palestinian support for the Fatah party led by President Abbas in the West Bank has collapsed to as low as 14%. Abbas is struggling to keep control of the Palestinian Authority territory in the face of support for armed groups such as Hamas.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that Hamas have the majority Palestinian support. That may or may not change in future.

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 00:41

Despite Israel announcing a ‘total blockade’ of Gaza in Monday, US national security adviser Jake Sullivan said on Tuesday that his understanding was that “the concept of siege is not something that in fact is going to be pursued by the Israeli government,” adding that Washington was speaking with the Israeli government “about their actions in this regard.” Leonie Chao-Fong Guardian 00.24 BST

Also reports of Israeli troops massing along the Gaza border fence in preparation for land invasion of Gaza

Israel | World news | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/israel

Universalsnail · 11/10/2023 00:43

TheBabylonian · 10/10/2023 17:50

Israel should never have been created after WW2 imho. The civilised world should get it’s act together and abolish it.

Israel are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the freedom fighters.

Of course one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Nobody is ever allowed to criticise Israel or they get called a Nazi which is pathetic and why Israel got away with so much awful behaviour over the years.

You can't just abolish Israel now. Whatever you think about the creation of Israel and what ever you think of the actions of the Israeli government over the years it has existed long enough now that a huge percentage of its population were born in Israel. What happens to all the born in Israel Jews if you abolish Israel now? Hama's have made it very clear the wish to remove all Jews from what would then be Palestine.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 11/10/2023 00:44

Yeah, you know what else requires electricity?! BLOODY HOSPITALS, though!

As it turns out, ventilators don't run on "thoughts and prayers".

And you know who - according to her own mother - is probably at a hospital in Gaza, with severe head injuries, and may or may not be needing assistance that is a tad hard to come by without electricity? That'll be Shani Louk - that poor woman whose near-naked photographs on the back of that truck have gone across half the world!

I wish her all the best! I am not religious, but if I were, I'd be praying for that woman!

But: cutting off electricity to Gaza also means "cutting off electricity from her and the doctors who - as the medical professionals they are - are undoubtedly trying to achieve the best outcome for their poorly patient".

That's just in case "generic cutting hospitals off power" wasn't fucked up enough for you just yet!

What the fuck is wrong with people? Just ... stop de-humanising your fellow humans, if you would, please!

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 00:49

HeidiInTheBigCity · 11/10/2023 00:44

Yeah, you know what else requires electricity?! BLOODY HOSPITALS, though!

As it turns out, ventilators don't run on "thoughts and prayers".

And you know who - according to her own mother - is probably at a hospital in Gaza, with severe head injuries, and may or may not be needing assistance that is a tad hard to come by without electricity? That'll be Shani Louk - that poor woman whose near-naked photographs on the back of that truck have gone across half the world!

I wish her all the best! I am not religious, but if I were, I'd be praying for that woman!

But: cutting off electricity to Gaza also means "cutting off electricity from her and the doctors who - as the medical professionals they are - are undoubtedly trying to achieve the best outcome for their poorly patient".

That's just in case "generic cutting hospitals off power" wasn't fucked up enough for you just yet!

What the fuck is wrong with people? Just ... stop de-humanising your fellow humans, if you would, please!

Edited

Most hospitals have generators

Obv fuel for generators is in short supply - but several tankers of fuel were seen leaving Rafah earlier today

HeidiInTheBigCity · 11/10/2023 00:59

You mean "fuel" as in "we are cutting Gaza off food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and ..." what was that other thing again? I must have forgotten!

Do you GENUINELY think it's a humanitarian take to say "generally, hospitals have emergency generators" [true, by the way!], "we'll just go ahead and trust that during an all out war our worst enemies, whom we officially describe as "animals" will prioritise hospitals when it comes to the allocation of super-scare fuel [which we have cut off - also, again, we think the other side are "animals"]".

Even if you happen to be 100% pro-Israel (I'm not, I'm pro Human rights, and I think everyone really sucks here): how is this NOT inhumane? Who on earth would leave the ability and willingness of - according to themselves, not me! - "animals" be the deciding factor over who lives and who dies at hospitals in Gaza?

Psychopathic, at best! That as well as "literally very intellectually limited" at worst!

Also, collective punishment is - kind of, sort of ... nah, it just uncontroversially is - a war crime!

You know, if your take genuinely is "yeah, so, some collateral damage is perfectly justified in the pursuit of an overall goal": go ahead, say it! A lot of people think that! I personally do not, I'd be perfectly happy to sign sovereignty over the whole region over to ... oh, make it Vanuatu, just because no-one even knows where that is if they promised fair treatment and equality for all. But then, I'm just not that convinced of the nation-state model. In reality, I'd probably be assassinated by someone who begs to differ!

That STILL doesn't mean you're excused from "decisions have consequences". If that woman dies, it's at least partially on draconian sanctions, too!

And at least she has a face, and a name (not as though we'll particularly care once we're dead ...)

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 01:13

HeidiInTheBigCity · 11/10/2023 00:59

You mean "fuel" as in "we are cutting Gaza off food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and ..." what was that other thing again? I must have forgotten!

Do you GENUINELY think it's a humanitarian take to say "generally, hospitals have emergency generators" [true, by the way!], "we'll just go ahead and trust that during an all out war our worst enemies, whom we officially describe as "animals" will prioritise hospitals when it comes to the allocation of super-scare fuel [which we have cut off - also, again, we think the other side are "animals"]".

Even if you happen to be 100% pro-Israel (I'm not, I'm pro Human rights, and I think everyone really sucks here): how is this NOT inhumane? Who on earth would leave the ability and willingness of - according to themselves, not me! - "animals" be the deciding factor over who lives and who dies at hospitals in Gaza?

Psychopathic, at best! That as well as "literally very intellectually limited" at worst!

Also, collective punishment is - kind of, sort of ... nah, it just uncontroversially is - a war crime!

You know, if your take genuinely is "yeah, so, some collateral damage is perfectly justified in the pursuit of an overall goal": go ahead, say it! A lot of people think that! I personally do not, I'd be perfectly happy to sign sovereignty over the whole region over to ... oh, make it Vanuatu, just because no-one even knows where that is if they promised fair treatment and equality for all. But then, I'm just not that convinced of the nation-state model. In reality, I'd probably be assassinated by someone who begs to differ!

That STILL doesn't mean you're excused from "decisions have consequences". If that woman dies, it's at least partially on draconian sanctions, too!

And at least she has a face, and a name (not as though we'll particularly care once we're dead ...)

Edited

Seems like Biden has not unsurprisingly told Netanayu [sp] that there's not going to be a 'total blockade'

Bloody messy land invasion instead