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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand what is going on between Israel & Palestine?

326 replies

sweetblue · 09/10/2023 18:44

I know I sound really naive here and I should know what is going on in the news but I don't really know much and I'd like to educate myself.

Can anyone explain in simple terms what is happening between the two? I have seen a few famous people saying they stand with Israel on social media and getting flamed for it. Also Rishi Sunak tweeting the same today.

Do most support Palestine then? Is the "right" thing to do or is there just two sides to every story here? I'd like to understand what is happening but don't know where to start

OP posts:
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1dayatatime · 10/10/2023 18:37

@TheBabylonian

"Israel should never have been created after WW2 imho. The civilised world should get it’s act together and abolish it.

Israel are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the freedom fighters.

Of course one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Nobody is ever allowed to criticise Israel or they get called a Nazi which is pathetic and why Israel got away with so much awful behaviour over the years."

+++

Well at least someone is being transparent about their views that many on this post secretly share.

threecupsofteaminimum · 10/10/2023 18:52

Hamas are militants. They've poked the bear and Israel will fuck them up now. Iran and Russia (and China for some reason) are involved backstage but mainly as they've been frozen out of international treaties and relations and are led by mentalist autocrats.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/10/2023 19:00

Jesus Christ (and, I'm saying this as an atheist)!

Which part exactly do people not get?

Israel is real! Palestinians are real!

You can go ahead and argue that, back in 1917, Palestinian identities weren't really that distinct from those of Syrians or Jordanians (arguably true - it's not as though I was around to run an empirical field study, but I'm happy to believe it!). Or, you can argue that Israel should never have been created because European powers didn't have any right at all to give away land on which other people already lived to alleviate their own guilty sentiments (also arguably true! If it happened today, we'd call it a gross example of imperialist colonial thinking - because it was!).

But none of this will make either Israelis or Palestinians go away. And people have a fundamental right to live in safety and under dignified circumstances. In other words: neither is it even remotely acceptable, to kill, rape, and abduct civilians - nor is it to occupy their homes and keep them in what amounts to an open air prison for all their lives. It just isn't!

So, what are we going to do then?!

PS: I have no words re. "beheading infants" - nor about that one Israeli minister who seems to have actually suggested nuking Gaza (which, in addition to psychopathic, is also batshit - not sure that one grasps how radioactivity works ...)! Just ... fuck these people, and let's work with some less insane ones to hopefully, eventually make people's lives better!

Iwasafool · 10/10/2023 19:04

Menachim Begin was the leader of Irgun when amongst their other terrorists and murderous activities they captured and hanged three British soldiers, then they booby trapped their bodies so they could further injure more British soldiers.

As Prime Minister of Israel he visited Britain, was welcomed at No 10 and was photographed shaking hands with British PM Margaret Thatcher.

Maybe one day the Hamas leader will be similarly honoured.

UsernamenotavailableBob · 10/10/2023 19:38

That won't happen. This war isn't going to stop until one side has been wiped out.

curaçao · 10/10/2023 19:42

i think they have been fighting since biblical times

UsernamenotavailableBob · 10/10/2023 19:48

They have. But they've never had the power to obliterate the other side before now. What we are seeing is genocide and the advent of a major war facilitated and funded by nation's who are otherwise held to account and can't start their own wars.

Wouldyouguess · 10/10/2023 20:06

Sussurations · 09/10/2023 19:05

It is not accurate to say that ‘Hamas snapped’ - they are armed by Iran, and some commentators think that the recent attacks are due to the US and Saudi Arabia’s ongoing talks. The attacks were certainly well planned and well funded, we are not talking about kids throwing rocks or a few rockets. That doesnt mitigate the suffering of the Palestinian people who continue to suffer of course, but Hamas chose to commit this unjustifiable and horrendous attack.

commit this unjustifiable and horrendous attack.

Not unlike what the Israeli army has been doing for decades, but without being branded terrorists.

beachcitygirl · 10/10/2023 20:09

Haffiana · 10/10/2023 17:22

Hamas is not Gaza.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza.

No it's not.

There was one Palestinian presidential election in 2005

and essentially Hamas got most of the votes (44.45% of the vote, vs. Fatah 41.43%), but this immediately led to the Fatah–Hamas conflict (2006–07)

and international sanctions against Hamas, some of which persist till today.
Essentially Hamas won a mandate to govern Gaza till 2014 but when polls showed that Fatah would win if an election was held in 2014 Hamas decided that it was not prudent to hold an election at all. Hamas is therefore currently governing Gaza without a mandate.
The internationally recognized Palestinian government is the Palestinian National Unity Government of March 2007

. It is recognized by practically all governments, including Israel.

EsmaCannonball · 10/10/2023 20:23

A Hamas spokesman was just on Channel 4 News, claiming that they had killed no civilians and blaming the British for creating the entire situation. Presumably he would think a similar attack on the UK would be justified. I would argue that if Hamas somehow attacked the UK with similar atrocities we have seen in the last few days that no-one on here would be sticking up for them but clearly there are people who will defend them no matter what. There are people who just believe anything Western is automatically oppressive and everyone else is a victim, no matter how regressive and totalitarian their ideology. Today I have heard about grandmothers having their murders posted on social media, POWs having their beheadings posted on social media, babies being beheaded, hostages being threatened with live-streamed murders, even about a poor dog that was burnt alive. Hamas are pure jihadis. They are not fighting for freedom, they are fighting to remove everyone else's freedom not to live under hard-line Islam.

I've also seen images of people desperate to leave Gaza. In the same way that people were far more accepting of Ukrainian refugees because they were largely women, children and the elderly or disabled, I hope that Egypt could see its way to accepting anyone who isn't a man of fighting age. (Although, having said that, Hamas utilises child soldiers, so .....)

EsmaCannonball · 10/10/2023 20:33

GilberMarkham · 10/10/2023 18:14

Yes we should "abolish" an armed to the teeth state..... We have the right to abolish people's countries.

Are they allowed to "abolish" ours too - when our elected representatives ok invading countries for war crimes etc that their population didn't commit - like Irak.

Or should we be "abolished" for colonising most of the world (and causing mass suffering and deprivation and loss of life while doing so?).

All the "civilised" countries are ex colonisers; have you missed that part.

Edited

I think it's very convenient for countries like Russia, China and Iran that Western hand-wringers are obsessed with ex-colonisers and not current colonisers.

DidIMissOut · 10/10/2023 21:05

weekschart · 10/10/2023 17:55

Hamas are oppressors too.

But it would have bever even been a thing if Israelis hadn’t started ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
Were Palestinians just supposed to sit there nicely and wait until Israel killed the last Palestinian?

Pro-Israelians really should start condemning Israelis oppression of Palestinians, everyone who doesn’t supports genocide and Islamaphobia. And that hasn’t been hide well here.

Maatandosiris · 10/10/2023 21:41

People who think this started in 1948 are about 2,500 years out. The holy land is of prime strategic importance with its access to the Med. Babylon basically annexed it, destroyed the Temple snd captured most of the Elite Jews.

Ever since then almost every empire has victimised Jews when they came across them, they have been exiled, displaced and been victims of genocide.

They need a sovereign state where they can be safe from the treatment they have received from so many others for millennia.

Israel feels the need to protect itself from threats, real and perceived.

Those in Gaza have received the rough end of this, they resent having some of “their” lands removed, Israel have been staunch defenders of its sovereignty)not surprisingly)

The Palestinians have suffered due to Israel’s Acton’s.,Hamas wants to use terrorists tactics to reclaim what it sees as its lost lands.

in short they’re fighting against 2,500 years of history and oppression

Maatandosiris · 10/10/2023 21:43

DidIMissOut · 10/10/2023 21:05

But it would have bever even been a thing if Israelis hadn’t started ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
Were Palestinians just supposed to sit there nicely and wait until Israel killed the last Palestinian?

Pro-Israelians really should start condemning Israelis oppression of Palestinians, everyone who doesn’t supports genocide and Islamaphobia. And that hasn’t been hide well here.

On the flip side I assume you would say anyone who argues against the need for Israel is antisemetic

Teddleshon · 10/10/2023 21:50

As has been pointed out, this did not begin with the formation of the state of Israel.

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:13

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps if you mean our mainstream media then no it’s not because our media will only show you what they want you to believe. The murder of babies and young children is all over social media, you don’t really even need to look for it. It’s there.

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 10/10/2023 22:22

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:13

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps if you mean our mainstream media then no it’s not because our media will only show you what they want you to believe. The murder of babies and young children is all over social media, you don’t really even need to look for it. It’s there.

If this is about my question about trustworthy sources, that’s been answered.

As I said, I didn’t doubt the PP, I just thought the news was so extraordinary and awful that I wanted to know if other sources had felt able to report it as substantiated.

If what you’ve said implies that I might think it was propaganda, you’re wrong. Look at my posts: I am four-square behind Israel.

Generally, though, in any circumstances I look for facts in more than social media reports.

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:25

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps your pro killing babies?

I’ll bow out of this chat with you

Guesswho88 · 10/10/2023 22:28

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 08:22

@Cocacolathanks but it doesn’t make it okay!

it is NEVER okay to kill babies, children, the innocent. You saying “but it’s what Israel has been doing to Palestinians” you are justifying it and that makes you every bit as bad as them if you think babies need to be beheaded!

NOBODY here thinks that is ok.

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 10/10/2023 22:28

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:25

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps your pro killing babies?

I’ll bow out of this chat with you

WTF are you talking about?

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:29

@Guesswho88 then do not pick a side!

Guesswho88 · 10/10/2023 22:30

Baffled1989 · 10/10/2023 22:29

@Guesswho88 then do not pick a side!

I'm not - what?!

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/10/2023 22:30

@Maatandosiris, I know that I happen to be on the record as "it´s complicated!". And it is! But you might be making this a little "too complicated" (not meaning you, personally - I am perfectly aware this is "a thing" within this particular context!).

Saying "they have been fighting" for >2500 years over the land we now call "Israel" or "Palestine" is, technically, not wrong. But then, neither is the same claim wrong about Britain! The Celts, Romans, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings, Alfread the Great and William the Conquerer defeating Harold Godwinson in battle! Harald Hadrada. William Wallace. The Jacobean wars! The Irish "toubles" ... even the legendary King Arthur does not go far enough back (and he probably never existed as such - and yet: we do not actually know anything!). The Scotish independence movement! You could, quite legitimately, claim Britain "has been fought over "for >2500 years", and you[d be quite correct, too! Heck, Im saying this as a "probably a bit Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Viking, and Norman - itself French meets Viking" person.

The notion of "national souvereignty" would not have existed 500 BC, neither would the idea of such a thing as "national identity". We have the 19th century to "thank" for both ideas (that have, on the whole, not been particularly useful in the field of "how do we make sure we don[t bloody murder each other?"). Thats not to say prejudice against Jews did not exist before that - it did! It just is not useful to frame the whole thing as some kind of a national struggle since time immemorial (I do know there is a book by that title, I have read it, and I am not a fan).

We shall have to somehow arrive to a frame of reference that includes "what happened to my, my parents, and my grandparents" if we are going to fix this! For no other reason as "pure pragmatism and limitation of scope to the mere impossible". Do not be mistaken! This will be complicated enough, including survivors of both the Holocaust and the Nakba, as it still does!

Teddleshon · 10/10/2023 22:37

The point is that Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years (dating back to BC) not that they have been involved in “fighting over land”.