To really hate that my toddler keeps deciding when we are going?

[Sunflowerpoppies]

When we go to a group at the moment my toddler knows the format and when it’s the ending song or rhyme gets up and walks/runs out.

I do bring him back and make him say good bye and thank you but he then as soon as we’ve said it he runs off again. It’s rubbish as it means I’m charging after him (also have a baby) and I know this is selfish but means I don’t get ten minutes to sit and chat with other mums, I’m not sure it anyone can relate?!

If it's not stopping him bolting out the door without you then no, it's not an effective boundary. You need a consequence which you enforce to keep him safe.

Regardless of whether you keep going to this group or not, you need to address the issue of him thinking it's OK to run off without you.

Parent your child.

But he is enjoying it. Until the end. Then he wants to go. He needs to learn to wait until mummy says let's go. Because mummy is in charge.

Indeed. It seems a very random hill to die on. Just get a buggy and everything is sorted. He still enjoys his weekly group, you get the chat you desperately want and in time baby uses it too. Why so much melodramatic nonsense when a buggy solves the whole bloody issue.

He’s telling you that he’s ready to go. Why is it so essential to enter into a battle of wills just to prove that “Mummy is the boss”? Just make life easy for everyone and go home without a power struggle.

You need buggy / reins and a snack.

This

Don't be ridiculous. It's not about a power struggle, it's about safety.

A 3 year old needs to understand that they can't bolt out of a door and run off from their parent whenever they decide it's time to leave. That's not safe.

If he wants to leave then the appropriate behaviour is to tell his mum he wants to leave, not to run out of the door.

You are expecting far too much of your toddler. They don't have a rational mind and barely understand the concept of other people's feelings. They are completely impulse driven. You are also expecting him to know something that he hasn't been taught yet (to go over to the freeplay area and play independently while you chat with other mums)

If you are making him running off be a trigger for leaving then you are reinforcing the idea that the end song means time to go. Reins as a temporary way of learning the new routine will help. For the next 2-3 weeks, have reins on and when the freeplay time starts after the final song, stick with him, take him over to the freeplay toys and engage in play with him. Reinforce that the final song doesn't mean time to go, it means time for play. Once that becomes the new pattern he will start happily going off to play as soon as the song happens, instead of going to the door. Once he has learned that, you will gradually be able to disengage from playing with him and stay with the other mums and chat.

I just feel like tying him down before the end of the session isn’t enforcing a boundary, it is literally - I’ve never seen anyone do that, ever. I don’t mind admitting I would be mortified to do that and it would be horrible for the other children and mums as he’d start having a screaming tantrum and no one would be able to enjoy tea and play then, rather than just me!

He never runs into the car park, he literally opens the door and I’m on him. But it is probably best to give them a miss anyway, the baby is very, very unsettled and it’s hard to get through the days so this is probably an added pressure we don’t need.

This is exactly what I was going to suggest. You are the one in charge, not him. I would have a caveat that you leave a couple of minutes later, though.

@Sunflowerpoppies You don't need to use reins or 'tie him down'. You just need to bring him back and tell him that's not OK, every time. If he continues then you need a consequence like a time out or whatever you normally use.

Doesn't matter if you carry on with this group or not - this is a behaviour he is doing which needs to be addressed, because he'll do it wherever you go and it's not safe.

You need to parent him.

DD used to do this but with leaving the house OP, I remember being on here and people just saying 'make her go out' and I would have had to literally cram her shoes and coat on and then physically get her out of the house, where she'd sit on the pavement screaming.

So I used to decide not to go out but that was awful too and made me feel totally crap. Sympathies, it's a nightmare sometimes!

Unless you think he's actually distressed, I'd keep going but before the next session, say very firmly 'we are going to stay all the way through the song, right until the very end. If you try to leave before the end then x nice thing will not happen (like watching TV etc) if you manage to stay to the end then y nice thing will happen (get a magazine or other treat). You can decide.'

Really - you do need the authority because once your baby is big enough to toddle around as well, you don't need a toddler who thinks he can leg it and you'll follow.

I know a few kids whose mums just go along with things for an easier life, it does not give you an easier life in the long run.

Your language is very dramatic. Putting your child in a buggy is not tying him down.

You have 2 children now unfortunately that means you need to juggle them, point blank refusing to go to a toddler group just means your eldest misses out. Out of interest how old is your baby, are you finding it all a lot and have you spoken to your health visitor because it's starting to sound like you could do with some support. You're catastophising and not taking on board perfectly rational advice.

@tootsweetss maybe I can try that some time, thank you.

It isn’t really for an easier life, I do have no problem with rules but if enforcing those rules ruins things for everyone else, that’s not really fair to me.

When is an appropriate age to enforce boundaries?
When is an appropriate age to not just take the easy option?

Pre empt him. Tell him what’s going to happen in advance and tell him that if he’s a good boy and waits nicely until mummy is ready then he can have a biscuit/visit to the park. Remind him of this when it finishes and every couple of minutes after that. It’ll take time. Toddlers aren’t renowned for their impulse control.

It’s not intended to be dramatic, that’s what I’d be doing, to me, it would be tying him into a buggy (that we don’t have!) to prevent him leaving. He’d then have a massive tantrum and that would mean the other parents there wouldn’t be able to have a chat! So not really fair to anyone!

No-one puts their toddler in a pushchair at the end of the session, so they can leave safely? Right.

It sounds like he's enjoying the sessions but struggles with listening to you and boundaries. That's completely normal. It's up to you to start to teach him the behaviour you want to see. Of course he won't get it straight away, but you persist. That's parenting.

This OP.

My DS used to run out at playgroup usually when I was bf dd. What worked for me was putting him in his buggy first. He was diagnosed with autism and ADHD just before he turned 3. Sometimes it's just a matter of breaking the routine. If something different happens to interrupt the routine then they stop.

Your child can't have been the only one to try this.
The other mothers may well have had similar problems - why not ask them?
It's like asking on a message board but with the added advantage that people can see exactly what's happening and perhaps actively help.

Sounds like he’s a quick learner (if he’s learned the routine for the end of singing) so if you spent the next few visits making him stay for 10 minutes, he’ll learn that new routine. So a few sessions where you end up spending the whole 10 minutes brining him back/holding his hand/etc and then after that, he’ll know that he’s got 10 minutes after the end of singing and going home. Toddlers don’t know this stuff automatically but if you teach him a few times, I’m sure it’ll be worth it.

@Sunflowerpoppies You can be dismissive of people here who are giving you sensible advice if you want to. But at the end of the day, if you don't parent your child and put in the effort to enforce necessary boundaries and consequences, you will make things harder for yourself and also more distressing and unpleasant for him in the long run.

Who’d let a toddler make the decisions. He wouldn’t in my house

Does he not respond to biscuit time? If everyone is having a biscuit after, this is usually a cue for them to all stop and sit to eat a biscuit