To think there should be much more awareness among cyclists that black and flouro yellow is absolutely rubbish for visibility in some areas?

[HauntedGusset]

Let me start by saying I have no problem with cyclists using roads. I give them space, I hang back, I only ever overtake when it is definitely safe to do so despite this often enraging the driver behind me.

BUT.

I live really rurally. The main road through my village is a very popular one with cyclists as it is a 20 mile trip through a beautiful river valley. It's twisty, its turny, it's uppy downy. It also passes in and out of thick woodland along the whole route. So visibility is crap full stop.

A worrying majority of the cyclists I see on this road are wearing black and flouro yellow. This means they show up beautifully on the few open sections of road where it passes through villages and would therefore be great in urban areas, but makes them almost completely invisible when going in and out of tree shade or along tree lined roads. The black and yellow just blend in perfectly with the dappled shade through leaves on tarmac. You just can't see them until you're almost on top of them because the hi vis they've chosen isn't hi vis at all in the conditions they're actually riding in! It's practically camouflage.

Sometimes they have lights on, but all too often if it's daylight they don't. One I only just saw last week was in black and yellow with a black rucksack, nothing reflective, but a red flashing light on a rucksack strap that had fallen to the side so wasn't visible until you were to the side of him! Reflective strips are more common but they're not that much use when it's light as cars often don't have headlights on in the daytime (my current car does because it's got running lights, but that's not standard).

Every now and then I see a cyclist using bright pink, orange, or blue, and they stand out so well! You can spot them even in the mix of sun and shade that makes the black and yellow ones almost invisible.

It's so common for the "hi vis" they wear to be black with yellow bits that I assume it just isn't known about? Can any cyclists tell me if they know this?

A lot of cyclists around my area just wear black.

I don’t use hi vis but most of my kit is white, blue, pink or multi coloured. I always have a back light.

the club I’m part of actually advises us to not wear black jersey or cycling jackets, especially in winter. I suppose it’s difficult to judge some conditions and what colour to wear!

I got shouted at by a cyclist for pulling out of a car park in front of him but I had no chance of seeing him at dusk.

He was in all black, no lights, no reflective things, just a dark red waistcoat type thing that perfectly matched the fence he must have been going past as I pulled out.

If I cycled at dusk I would want to drape myself in flashing lights and rainbow clothes to make myself stand out!

It is a known fact that yellow hi Viz is best for urban use and pink for rural use. There have been studies.

Orange is best all round which is why rail workers and postmen wear it.

I don't cycle but I ride a horse on the roads and the advice is to mix your hi-viz and a few companies now make items that use several colours.

Cyclists are more resistant to the hi-viz message and many will quote studies that say that hi-viz doesn't improve road safety. It probably doesn't if they are wearing multi coloured lycra kit as bright and light colours perform well in daylight but so many wear black these days and it does make it difficult to see them. Orange hi-viz is difficult to buy in technical kit though and pink hi-viz tends to only be in women's sections so cyclists in yellow are probably doing their best.

Do we really need to mollycoddle even more than we do these days? Surely it's bloody common sense that wearing black makes you harder to be seen? Even if it's not there've been all kinds of "awareness" initiatives over the years. If someone can't be arsed to take such simple precautions to protect themselves, then it's just tough! Anyway, pretty sure a lot of the "dubious" looking people wearing black do it exactly so they are less visible after doing a spot of burgling, or pickpocketing, or whatever. I'd far rather any spare money for such initiatives to be spent on dealing with potholes etc.

I’m a motorist and a cyclist. With an up to date eye test.
If you cycle but don’t drive I think it’s really easy to assume that a motorist can easily see you as easily as you can see them, but being in a vehicle behind a windscreen does compromise your ability to see, particularly in wet/dark conditions, regardless of how good your eyesight is.
I regularly see cyclists without lights, wearing black, and they are invisible until you’re almost too close to them. Factor in a lapse of concentration or another distraction, and you could easily hit one.
As road users we should all be doing what we can to make ourselves as safe as possible, and that includes making ourselves visible on our bikes.

I've never heard of fluoro being an issue no. And I wouldn't use lights in the daytime either. Though I am a city cyclist.

I think what she’s saying ties in with my point. She says that yellow hi vis isn’t adequate in country lanes, and suggests a different colour. I’m saying make ourselves visible.

I’ve got perfect eyesight but there are very specific, most rural, conditions where it is very challenging to see cyclists in black and yellow. This is where there’s a hollow way with trees overhead, it’s sunny, and there’s dappled sunlight on the road.

It absolutely scares the crap out of me when I see a cyclist later than I ordinarily would because they have so perfectly blended with their surroundings.

Okay, you’re going to have to take that one up with my optometrist, but yes, a cyclist on a black bike in black clothes is surprisingly difficult to see in a hollow way.

Personally I’d rather be visible than dead but that’s just me. There’s always Darwin’s law for those who believe they are perfectly visible when literally every winter cycling article mentions the difficulty of low light.

Bloody hell. I can see fine, thanks.

I'm talking about a specific colour combination, that at least 50% of cyclists seem to think is adequate hi vis, being completely inadequate for the local road conditions.

For much of the year, black with yellow hi vis stripes/accessories does not show up well at all in the specific road conditions I drive daily. The dappled shade under trees makes that colour combination act like camouflage. Other colours, such as pink or orange or blue, show up extremely well indeed and would be a much safer choice. I've got a photo somewhere that DS took from the passenger seat which proves my point, I'm going to try and find it and post it to show what I mean.

I know that flouro yellow is said to be the colour that offers best visibility for cyclists in urban areas but I think there's not enough understanding of how different road conditions affect visibility and need different safety gear. Black and yellow do not show up well against leaves/sunlight/tarmac. It's not me being a dick or unable to see properly, it's just physics.

I don't want to see cyclists too late. I want to see them well ahead so I can help keep them safe on the road and drive carefully and give them space. But when they are wearing clothing that acts as camouflage against the road conditions, that is harder for me to do.

There's absolutely no downside to making yourself as visible as possible if you're a 'vulnerable' road user (pedestrian, cyclist, rider), is there.

I'd never really thought about it but the op is right that just yellow and black isn't the best choice on some roads. Horse riders do seem to mostly use pink hereabouts.

There's also the argument that a full black silhouette is easier to see when in low sun conditions. So basically it's a no-win scenario for cyclists and other vulnerable road users if they choose the wrong colours for the environment they're cycling/walking/riding in.

I guess we could change clothes when crossing from rural to urban areas? We'd need to do the same at dawn and dusk too of course. Seems a bit drastic though...

I can't remember ever having a problem seeing a cyclist in an urban area whether they were wearing any hi-vis or not (and definitely no problems spotting a horse!) . The countryside though - yes. It can be a lot harder (with the same fully functioning distance vision)

These circumstances also arise with hi-viz orange in autumnal situations, I've noticed this particularly with railway workers on the rails next to loads of beech trees.

Not sure if there is a situation where pink hi Viz doesn't work well though. Unless sunrise/sunset when rain is due.

I guess the question is how far would motorists like us to go to make sure they can see us? Or should they be driving to the conditions? No easy answers in a car dominant society.

I agree OP, fluctuating light/shade isn't great when wearing stripes, especially when one is black in colour. It would be better to have pink/orange or blue/orange or pink/blue for optimum visibility.

I get your point about how far cyclists should be expected to go to make themselves visible, but I suspect that this issue of black/yellow might just be because they don't know they're making themselves invisible! In which case perhaps there should be more awareness.

It's tricky. I want to share the road safely and tbh I hate driving everywhere but for multiple reasons (mainly disability related) cycling isn't a suitable mode of transport for my family. I didn't learn to drive until my 30s - before that I was a happy user of public transport so it's not like I'm some road hog with tunnel vision who doesn't GAF about anyone else. I really am not a cyclist hater but this does scare me sometimes when I find one right in front of me that honestly wasn't visible any sooner due to their choice of clothing.

"I really am not a cyclist hater but this does scare me sometimes when I find one right in front of me that honestly wasn't visible any sooner due to their choice of clothing"

I think most folks are like this to be honest. I don't think most motorists are deliberately malicious!

Interestingly, it may not even matter what vulnerable road users wear, and the whole thing could be a waste of time : https://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fighter-pilots-guide-to-surviving-on-the-roads/

This is why we have road safety professionals who look into all this stuff (it's a lot more complex than the police and medics would have us believe!) and advise the lawmakers on what would or wouldn't be a good idea. At least that's the theory...

I cycle and always wear a hi-vis jacket but I didn’t know that yellow could be hard to see in daylight. My current jacket is pink but that’s only because it was on offer when I bought it and cheaper than other colours, I have a vest for warm weather which is yellow. Now I know this I will definitely look at sticking to pink or orange over yellow.