To think there should be much more awareness among cyclists that black and flouro yellow is absolutely rubbish for visibility in some areas?

[HauntedGusset]

Let me start by saying I have no problem with cyclists using roads. I give them space, I hang back, I only ever overtake when it is definitely safe to do so despite this often enraging the driver behind me.

BUT.

I live really rurally. The main road through my village is a very popular one with cyclists as it is a 20 mile trip through a beautiful river valley. It's twisty, its turny, it's uppy downy. It also passes in and out of thick woodland along the whole route. So visibility is crap full stop.

A worrying majority of the cyclists I see on this road are wearing black and flouro yellow. This means they show up beautifully on the few open sections of road where it passes through villages and would therefore be great in urban areas, but makes them almost completely invisible when going in and out of tree shade or along tree lined roads. The black and yellow just blend in perfectly with the dappled shade through leaves on tarmac. You just can't see them until you're almost on top of them because the hi vis they've chosen isn't hi vis at all in the conditions they're actually riding in! It's practically camouflage.

Sometimes they have lights on, but all too often if it's daylight they don't. One I only just saw last week was in black and yellow with a black rucksack, nothing reflective, but a red flashing light on a rucksack strap that had fallen to the side so wasn't visible until you were to the side of him! Reflective strips are more common but they're not that much use when it's light as cars often don't have headlights on in the daytime (my current car does because it's got running lights, but that's not standard).

Every now and then I see a cyclist using bright pink, orange, or blue, and they stand out so well! You can spot them even in the mix of sun and shade that makes the black and yellow ones almost invisible.

It's so common for the "hi vis" they wear to be black with yellow bits that I assume it just isn't known about? Can any cyclists tell me if they know this?

If you bothered to read it properly, MikeRafone, you'll see I was careful NOT to say that flashing lights "aren't right" — I said that I specifically have more difficulty judging the distance and speed of cyclists when they use flashing lights ALONE in dark conditions, and also that, on the assumption that (since I presume I am not utterly unique among human beings) this may be the case for at least some others too, it's possible that this is something else which was supposed to help but which might, in certain unexpected circumstances, actually be unhelpful.

I also assume that, since many cyclists near me use flashing lights alone, they're either not aware of this perception difficulty in at least one but possibly more road users, or are aware but have decided on balance to continue using flashing lights alone. I posted in case there are cyclists who use flashing lights alone at night but were not aware that there's at least one (but likely more than one) person who experiences a difficulty judging distance and speed when encountering a cyclist using flashing lights alone.

I find it really weird that someone would be so defensive in response to someone saying that they find it harder to judge distance and speed of a cyclist at night when they only have flashing lights. Why would you be upset to find out that this is a difficulty which exists? Do you think it's a criticism of cyclists?

Problem is, if they're doing, say, a 70mile ride, they can't change outfits every time they come to a different area. they need to wear what works most of the time.

Oh dear OP. It seems your posts are triggering to some 🙄

It's well known that certain things are needed so you can be seen in different lights and circumstances. Blurring of outlines, camouflaging colours/patterns, using lights so your distance/speed cant be gauged accurately should be talked about. After all, the MOD spend millions trying to hide things.

To me the OP's post is about as offensive as a lifeguard posting to say "FYI, your struggling child is much harder to see in a dull or patterned swimming outfit". It doesn't mean the lifeguard thinks that a child in a grey flowery cossie brought it on themselves if they drown, or that the lifeguard is trying to shirk responsibility for noticing a child in difficulty and saving them whatever they're wearing. It's just some info people may or may not have been aware of, to avoid something that nobody wants to happen.

(My own post about flashing lights alone isn't even as strong as that — it's just something I've noticed from my own experience which I wonder about the possible implications of, if others have the same experience.)

Round here, similar terrain to that described by the OP, most cyclists wear black. In woodland invisible. In dull conditions invisible. In rain invisible.

Yes good point! @MikeRafone do you think that this graphic is a sign that everyone hates swimmers and lifeguards and other pool users can't be bothered to look out for anyone struggling in the water and should just learn to use their eyes better and stop victim blaming? Or do you accept that it's just useful to know how different colours affect visibility?

Get down off the cross.

I'm a fricking cyclist, and you're a car driver, as you just posted. People in dark clothes without lights are difficult to see in the dark. This is the way physics works.

I wear yellow hi-viz in order to be seen, so it's useful to know that it blends into some types of surroundings.

It will also be useful for parents on mumsnet to be reminded to check their teenagers have lights on their bikes and use them.

I always say this too!! We’re very rural and you sometimes come upon people who think that they’re totally visible (and well done to them for doing it) and I literally see them just before I come upon them. Terrifying :(

The problem is one person's "useful to know" is another person's "well why weren't they doing this/that? It's their own fault".

When the threat difference between a cyclist/rider/pedestrian and car is so hugely significant, against a backdrop of insurance companies and drivers animosity towards vulnerable road users, it's not really surprising it is taken in different ways. Particularly when one group is sold something as a benefit only to have it pointed out that "actually" it isn't!

Also interesting to note that if you Google "hi viz debate" there's almost as many opinions and lack of evidence either way as there is for the "cycle helmet" debate!

Twas ever thus I guess...

Haven’t RTFT but as a cyclist and driver, co
completely agree with the OP!
I have done a lot of cycle outside my town which is on the edge of a rural area, usually with a couple of mates, one of whom had a habit of wearing black. As the OP said, when cycling behind him it was noticeable how he blended into trees and hedges in the shade, particularly in winter, and when going in and out of sunshine.
My kit has always included a lot of blue as well as reflective strips and I’ve always used front and rear lights even in daylight as they really help with visibility.
Agree on visibility of orange and pink. To be fair, I do have one male cyclist friend who regularly wears pink! He is pretty non conformist generally though!

It came up on another thread last winter that yellow hi-vis also doesn't show up well against snow.

However, black contrasts wonderfully with snow, in a neat reversal of all the usual advice against wearing black!

Pink. That's the entire point of the thread - that bright pink is the better colour when in a non urban environment.

It's why so many football teams wear it now and stand out on the pitch compared to the other team in bright baby blue, cyan, yellow or green and so many boots are available in pink. Because it stands out against green and against lighting.

I can't bring myself to buy a bright pink jacket/top.

Pink doesn't work too well in low sun either. Probably better to recommend lights than anything else IMO.

There is also the idea of having lights that illuminate the cyclist/rider/pedestrian as well as shining in front and to the rear. Not wearable lights, but ones directed at the person themself. This makes them even more visible... ...in some circumstances!

I live rurally too and they all wear pink round here, especially the men. I thought they were just trying to be edgy 😂.

and yet apparently pink isn't any good against the low sun

so in the mean time can drivers slow down and take care to look out for others on the road

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision, I don't drive when on a bike

I prefer to wear orange, but there's almost nothing available

@DdraigGoch https://www.wiggle.com/p/dhb-r3-0-road-helmet?utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=base&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7JOpBhCfARIsAL3bobeHL4H3yJ2JAlCE9k934fICWVjEOg6pXqJuzYR6a5OrpegGJlYtWMAaArjiEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

these helmets come in orange

I've thought this too! I drive through country lanes to get the kids to school, and on a sunny morning with the sun coming through the leaves, the fluorescent yellow just completely blends in (I noticed it on a dog walker, but it applies to cyclists too obviously)

I've not had an issue with Orange or Pink - I wonder if because even as the leaves turn orange, it's not coupled with the bright sun shining through them.

And obviously, knowing that there are dog walkers, walkers, and cyclists I drive carefully - there's no pavements out here, so I know there's going to be people, but there's also massive trucks from the quarry, and they don't hang about, and take up a lot of the road.

so when I'm out walking/with the kids, I've made sure we have orange or red or pink gear, not yellow or green now that I've seen it.

How about drivers endeavour to be more mindful of light/trees etc and cyclists protect themselves by wearing a mix of bright colours?

Yep. I'm absolutely hyper aware of the hi-vis-acting-as-camouflage phenomenon now, and I drive with extreme caution on this road especially at weekends when it's absolutely guaranteed that there will be a lot of cyclists out for a ride. Interestingly the mid-week cyclists tend to be local people going to town and back on a clunky bike and often wear much better hi vis (ie full tabards rather than just highlights on clothing) than the leisure/pro cyclists with ££ bikes who are out at the weekend! I don't know why tho Maybe the locals just know the road conditions better and know what stands out?

@HauntedGusset it’s exactly the same around here.

Bike commuters to the rail station are lit up like Christmas trees but Steve on his £8,000 road bike is dressed in all black for his Sunday morning jaunt.

Steve's alert, full of hope and trust in his fellow man, so he projects that onto the other road-users.

The cycling commuters are used to rush hour, so they presume that the other road users are tired, stressed and not at their best. Thus lights.

Me, I've got three different sets on my bike now!