To think there should be much more awareness among cyclists that black and flouro yellow is absolutely rubbish for visibility in some areas?

[HauntedGusset]

Let me start by saying I have no problem with cyclists using roads. I give them space, I hang back, I only ever overtake when it is definitely safe to do so despite this often enraging the driver behind me.

BUT.

I live really rurally. The main road through my village is a very popular one with cyclists as it is a 20 mile trip through a beautiful river valley. It's twisty, its turny, it's uppy downy. It also passes in and out of thick woodland along the whole route. So visibility is crap full stop.

A worrying majority of the cyclists I see on this road are wearing black and flouro yellow. This means they show up beautifully on the few open sections of road where it passes through villages and would therefore be great in urban areas, but makes them almost completely invisible when going in and out of tree shade or along tree lined roads. The black and yellow just blend in perfectly with the dappled shade through leaves on tarmac. You just can't see them until you're almost on top of them because the hi vis they've chosen isn't hi vis at all in the conditions they're actually riding in! It's practically camouflage.

Sometimes they have lights on, but all too often if it's daylight they don't. One I only just saw last week was in black and yellow with a black rucksack, nothing reflective, but a red flashing light on a rucksack strap that had fallen to the side so wasn't visible until you were to the side of him! Reflective strips are more common but they're not that much use when it's light as cars often don't have headlights on in the daytime (my current car does because it's got running lights, but that's not standard).

Every now and then I see a cyclist using bright pink, orange, or blue, and they stand out so well! You can spot them even in the mix of sun and shade that makes the black and yellow ones almost invisible.

It's so common for the "hi vis" they wear to be black with yellow bits that I assume it just isn't known about? Can any cyclists tell me if they know this?

Whilst i agree being visible helps, there are a minority of motorists that even when they have seen you, pull out, over take too close (and then turn left!)

They've seen you but don't care, same as when they speed past horses of people walking on a narrow lane... their journey is too important than your life.

The changes to the highway code, imho have made zero difference, there is no enforcement of any motoring laws in this country unless its by camera.

There is also various campaigns to get cyclists to use flashing "day time" riding lights following the deaths of some professional cyclists in mainland europe.

Why does it need to be so polarised though? It's not that cyclists should do X, or drivers should do Y - it's both, surely.

I'm a cyclist, and I don't want to be hit, and I'm a driver, and I don't want to hit anyone. So, I do everything that I can at all times to keep everyone as safe as possible.

Totally agree. I'm not a cyclist but my DH is and I rode horses for 20 years on the roads. Drivers can be absolute bastards, I was out driving yesterday (very many cyclists out) and going up an extremely steep, winding hill I was behind a cyclist that I couldn't safely overtake. I settled in a good distance behind him, didn't want him to feel pressurised and happy to go slow. Cue a maniac bloke driver in a black Audi who roared up behind me and on the steepest blindest bit of the hill decides he'll try and overtake me and presumably the cyclist! I stuck my arm out of the car to stop him so of course I got full on blaring of his horn until the next insane opportunity he felt he had, when he then went past us both at great acceleration, horn blaring etc narrowly missing a car coming down the hill. It really upset me, I was trying to protect the cyclist with my car as it were and yet this total arsehole put at least 3 lives at risk, not including his own.

I just don't know, it's awful but how can you change that mindset when certain people like that get behind the wheel?

I’m also in the rather be seen than dead camp.

We live quite rurally too and I’ve noticed this too. Lots of country lanes round here, in and out of the sun, leaves changing colour, etc makes the yellow hi vis quite hard to see - although it is an improvement on the usual dark colours I see cyclists wearing.

DD rides, horses rather than bikes, and all her hi-vis is pink - it’s much more visible.

Another one agreeing that black and yellow are hard to see. I live along a rural road which is very popular with cyclists. It is also lined with high hedges which are all shades of green and for much of the year overhang the edges of the road. It is terrifying the number of cyclists who wear mostly black and no high vis and those who wear black and a bit of yellow high vis, which as the OP says, is basically camouflage. And in low light, just because you can see, doesn't mean others can see you!

not being funny but if you can't see them, how do you see them? If drivers can't see a cyclists in daylight without flashing lights - then should they be driving at that speed? drivers need to start slowing down and looking carefully

Surely you have been out in the dark before? I spot them when I get really close to them. My stopping distance as a cyclist is also much shorter than a car's. If I barely spot someone in time when trundling along at 4mph, how confident should they be that the 30mph car will spot them?

Another horse rider who uses mixed colours here. Once I was watching from the yard as 3 of my friends rode along a track a small field away. Each more a different colour - yellow, pink or orange and were on bay (brown) or black horses. It was autumn and they were riding by a mixed hedge. At different times each of them disappeared against the hedge depending on the colour of the leaves.

Surely you have been out in the dark before?

I drove home the other night and saw a couple of cyclists without lights, its is obviously illegal but it wasn't an issue - I was travelling at 30mph and overtook them. My headlights lite them up as did the street lighting - that's why I saw them.

Compared with going out on my bike and stopping twice as two drivers pulled out of side roads without turning their heads to look, thats dangerous and if I hadn't being paying attention to what the drivers were doing, I could have been seriously injured. Then I'd get the blame for not wearing something, a helmet, hi vis, flashing lights or doing something, going too fast, too slow, not looking, not anticipating the driver not looking.

so I wear all these things but now apparently its the wrong colour.....ffs

victim blaming at its worst

@MikeRafone it's usually not in the dark that visibility is a problem. It's in the shade of a tree, dappled light or against a dark hedge. Camouflage is a thing. I've watched a black and white horse with a rider in dull coloured clothing disappear in front of me in dappled shade and sometimes I can't see my own black horse in his field if he's up against a hedge in the shade. That's why I won't ride out without hi viz, I value his life too much.

That's why I won't ride out without hi viz, I value his life too much.

but you are putting yourself at risk, as it doesn't work? Thats the point of the thread - hi viz isn't the correct colour

When will society be more careful in cars? slow down and take care and look at what they are doing - instead of keep victim blaming that the clothing is the wrong colour?

@MikeRafone I wear multiple colours and that works a hell of a lot better then nothing. I also carry a bright orange whip to make my hand signals more visible. I often get comments that you can see me a mile off as we are dressed so brightly, which is the objective.

Victim blaming? Oh come on. This is literally just a post to raise awareness. It's obviously needed because several posters have thanked me and said they hadn't realised before but now would be aware!

I don't want to fail to see a cyclist and thus cause an accident and god forbid seriously injure or even kill someone. I would be very grateful if cyclists could therefore play their part in ensuring that they can be seen from closer than about 6 foot away! And if that means using the right hi vis gear for the actual road conditions then... that's just what it means.

I'm sorry about the science of light refraction and how the eye perceives low contrast colours. Blame physics, not me. I'm just trying to make sure people know about it!

No, the point of the thread is to highlight that a specific colour of hi vis doesn't work in all road conditions. It's a fair point to make. Clearly, not everyone knows this. If it saves one life then it's worth getting an incoherent earful from people like you [shrug]

Mate, we're simply saying if you're riding in the countryside on national speed limit roads that are narrow, leafy & without street lights, we don't want to smush you - like really really don't. So wear pink! And fairy lights.

As well as the dazzle camouflage in environment-matching colours, another thing I've noticed which has been promoted to cyclists as helpful and which many have taken up in the hopes it will help them be seen more easily, but which I think in certain circumstances might be unexpectedly counterproductive, is the flashing lights mentioned above.

I think legally flashing lights fulfil the highway code requirements, though there's a recommendation to have a solid front light if you're riding somewhere without streetlights, which makes sense if you want to see where you're going all the time rather than just half of it But in my experience, in the dark it's far harder to judge the distance and speed of a flashing light than a solid light (or a solid light with an additional flashing light).

Where I live, when the flashing lights became popular many years ago, many people started riding in the dark with flashing lights alone, and I've read that they're thought to be better because they catch the eye more than a small solid light (and also make it more obvious it's a cyclist). But — and I don't know whether it's because my eyes can't rest on it long enough to get a good idea of how my eyes are focusing and converging, or whether the flashing distracts my brain, or what it is — I realised when I was out walking in the dark that I was having a much harder time telling how far away the cyclist was, whether they were stationary or moving towards/away from me, and how fast they were going.

There don't seem to be quite so many people cycling in the dark with only flashing lights now (though I'm not sure whether that's people adding/switching to solid lights, or people reverting to no lights at all), but it's still something I see really frequently, and I think if people knew that for at least some other road users, it makes it really hard to tell how far away they are and how fast they're going, they might add a solid light.

Mate, I’m simply saying look 👀 when you’re driving, stick to the speed limit and take care. There is only so much other road users can do to protect themselves - now drivers need to do their looking and slowing down

We'll put that on your tombstone.

what along with wearing a helmet hi viz flashing lights ( but apparently they’re not right according to the post above yours) bright top - what more do drivers want?

next it’ll be horse riders need to wear armour otherwise they’re negligent

Are you actually Jeremy Vine?

Who the fuck is Jeremy vine? And what’s that got to do with asking drivers to be careful of other road users 🤷‍♀️

The request to asking drivers to look or be more careful is terrible

oh we will put that on your tombstone

or are you Jeremy vine

all it is is saying can you take care of other

Pity the boot wasn't luminescent pink really, isn't it?

I was a motorcyclist. There will always be some people who say 'Sorry, mate, didn't see you' when you're flat on your back doing the wiggle your toes self check. But that doesn't mean I had to make it harder for drivers to see me in particular conditions.

No amount of moral superiority will help once you're in Neuro HDU and they're performing brain stem function tests.

Just wear a better colour of vest.

The first 10 words of your title are enough!

Interesting thread. I've skimmed to get the gist.

I am sort of a newish cyclist. I mean, I've cycled all my life, but only in the last few years have I got a decent bike along with kleats, the squishy short etc, and go for long rides 'just because'.

In the daytime I use flashing front and back light and wear a bright top.
In the nighttime my front light is steady and my back, flashing.
My top is high viz yellow and I put tabard with reflective strips over the top (so just the yellow arms would be seen).

Would a bright blue jacket with reflective bits on it be the best thing to wear at night? I live rurally, but not near wood areas that the OP describes.

I am mainly a runner so have invested more in my night running gear - both to see and be seen.

Just wear a better colour of vest.

when you’ve worked out how to get drivers to look at what colour - let me know

until then I’ll wear red or blue and hi viz helmet