To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

I will expand a little on the types of things I mean. This abuse was directed at myself (female) as well as my partner (male) by a jealous ex lover.

Examples of how this was treated differently...

Someone stalking me was framed as funny, rather than terrifying because she was a woman

My partner (who developed severe PTSD) was given no real sympathy or support

Her behaviour, which was psychotic, was framed as "emotional" or "struggling" or "she obviously needs help".

I had to leave social media, move house, both of us had to change jobs and we are still both jumpy years later.

I wonder why this is?

There's been research on the gendered dimensions of stalking. Not to diminish what you went through at all. But my understanding of that research was that stalking by a man towards a woman correlates more highly with risk to life, so resources are allocated with that in mind.

I think you're right, though, that people have a strong bias.

Yes, I understand in a combat situation a man is more of a physical threat, but I did certainly feel my life was in danger.

Beyond that, threat to life isn't the only way someone can reign terror on you.

If this person was experiencing psychosis then yes she did need help and that was a valid observation.

See why is that the first thing people leap to? Excusing the offender?

She wasn't experiencing psychosis.

She was an abuser.

Exactly the same as every MALE abuser.

You said she was psychotic?

Johnny Depp was abusive so your example is wrong.

You just have to see the statistics around how many women are hurt or killed by men to see who is more victimised. I'm not saying men never are but there is a sort of natural power imbalance which means women are much more at risk.

I think the high volume of male abusers just means that most abuser's are male. Doesn't mean I'm any less likely to believe a man was abused.

I think some people may struggle to see women as abusers and men as victims because as you say, it goes against the patterns we know and is in opposition to the norm. There are also issues around the relative privelege, opportunities, power and strength of typical men and women which means we are less likely to percieve men as 'natural' victims.
However I think there's been a huge push of late to recognise the victim status of men at the hands of women. Far more that when they are victims of other men's violence, which is much more likely. Our society is not as a rule slow to point the finger at and vilify women, and abuse of men is certainly no exception.
When a woman is recognised to have done wrong, I find people are typically all over it, far more so than when its yet another instance of male abusive behaviour, which is so frequent it barely makes our radar.

@ChocolateCakeOverspill

It was pretty obviously a turn of phrase given the post was clearly talking about an abuser. Had the post been about a man, all the responses would be "oh poor you", but as it's a woman it's immediately "she needs help!"

Psychosis is a short term mental state. I was clearly describing an ongoing experience of abuse that led to myself and my partner more or less having to run away.

Psychosis doesn't cause coercive control, or emotional abuse. While briefly frightening, it is not similar in any way to being targeted by an abusive person.

I think there is shame around female to male domestic abuse, so it doesn’t get talked about. I had an ex partner that would never report an ex even though she continued to assault him after he’d ended the relationship.

I think in cases where a woman has been abusive people are more likely to think that a) the woman was driven to it by trauma or other bad life experiences, and b) the woman was groomed by a man. It is hard to get away from the angel in the house syndrome, where women are naturally gentle and nurturing.

@PhantomUnicorn

my best friend is a victim of female on male DV. The way he has been treated until the point she pulled a knife on him is atrocious

You can bet when it all gets to court, she'll pull her 'little bird' act and not get the same punishment a bloke would if my friend had been a woman

It's disgusting how much it's minimised when the abuser is female

Exactly this. People haven't got the first idea of how this works. If the man is brave enough to speak out, many people will entirely ignore the obvious pattern of abuse and fall for the crocodile tears and lies (much like Amber Heard).

And the abuser knows it and uses it as leverage. Certainly in DPs case she told him if he phoned the police she would say he hit her and raped her (neither happened).

Even when caught "red handed" in acts of terror, she would cry and gain sympathy. It was very disturbing!

@ketchup07070

I think in cases where a woman has been abusive people are more likely to think that a) the woman was driven to it by trauma or other bad life experiences, and b) the woman was groomed by a man. It is hard to get away from the angel in the house syndrome, where women are naturally gentle and nurturing

Exactly. And the abuser knows this and uses it. They even say "go ahead you baby! Tell people I'm abusing you! Nobody will believe you!"

I know that's what this woman said to DP and it was also pretty much what Amber Heard said n the tapes I heard.

why does this have to detract from the overwhelming male bias in voilent and sexual crimes?

@Superhair

I think there is shame around female to male domestic abuse, so it doesn’t get talked about. I had an ex partner that would never report an ex even though she continued to assault him after he’d ended the relationship

Very true.

Also people dont think they will be believed or taken seriously. We installed security alarms etc and she broke into our garden twice! As soon as police arrived she'd cry and say she was just having a hard time.

But she wasn't weak. She would call and say "call the police again and I'll say you raped me" and hang up. Meanwhile she was terrorising us completely.

We didn't take it much further because frankly we were too frightened. We felt it easier to change jobs and move and go off grid, but it scares me to think she will do this to someone else.

@Summerhillsquare I don't think it does, really. Men commit most violent crimes, but some people think in the few cases of female perpetrators, people find it harder to accept their guilt, I suppose?

And the first response absolutely summarises the perception of society or rather mumsnet

But the thing is alot of abuse isn't even necessarily physical a large amount of it is psychological, in this context I think females can be alot worse. All you need to do is look at how girls bully in schools rather then boys. Girls will isolate and psycholically fuck with victims but boys will be faster to punch. I say that as someone who was abused as a child bit was never hit so didn't really count as abuse.

It's because people are so used to thinking of women as victims.
I've known a few victims of abuse who are males abused by females.
The thing that many, many people seem to misunderstand is the level of mental and emotional trauma that is aimed at them is usually more. The males I've known have literally had these women decimate their lives with manipulation tactics, police even laughed at one when he tried to report that he had been physically abused by his female partner.

I'm so sorry you have been through this.

If you know full well that ‘psychosis’ and ‘abuser’ are different things then you shouldn’t use one to mean the other. People with mental health issues have enough to deal with without people lumping them in with abusers.

@Coffeaddict

And the first response absolutely summarises the perception of society or rather mumsnet

Yes. This situation has arisen because DP, after suffering debilitating PTSD had just started counselling and it makes me sad to know how many people back then witnessed what was happening and just minimised it. There is a profound impact on the victim.

But the thing is alot of abuse isn't even necessarily physical a large amount of it is psychological, in this context I think females can be alot worse. All you need to do is look at how girls bully in schools rather then boys. Girls will isolate and psycholically fuck with victims but boys will be faster to punch

Absolutely. We were psychologically fucked with and while it's not the same as the terror of a man strangling you, it is incredibly traumatic.

I say that as someone who was abused as a child bit was never hit so didn't really count as abuse

Bless you :( I hope you've found peace and healing x

@oksothisisusnow

The thing that many, many people seem to misunderstand is the level of mental and emotional trauma that is aimed at them is usually more. The males I've known have literally had these women decimate their lives with manipulation tactics, police even laughed at one when he tried to report that he had been physically abused by his female partner

Exactly. People dont understand how manipulation, threats, isolation, grooming, devaluation etc are very powerfully employed by abusive females.

I’m sure I read somewhere that - you’re absolutely right - women are given the benefit of the doubt in these situations where men wouldn’t be. But, conversely, when sentenced they get stiffer penalties than men would for the same behaviour because offending women are seen as “unnatural”.

I know someone who is an abuser but plays victim (and gets excused a lot) on the basis she is female. This woman is hard core too, not a loving bone in her body yet she plays victim flawlessly, it’s actually scary. 9/10 times in general it is the male, but as with everything, there are exceptions to the rule.

@Whattodowithit88

I know someone who is an abuser but plays victim (and gets excused a lot) on the basis she is female. This woman is hard core too, not a loving bone in her body yet she plays victim flawlessly, it’s actually scary

I think this is what psychopathy is. The person who did it to us played victim flawlessly too. Held down a good job. Was incredibly charming. It was the most disturbing thing ever.