To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

Some abusive women can be as good as if not more so manipulative and controlling than males. But like I said obviously abusive males can also be.

Have you encountered all abusers that you can definitely say this. Because the the number of female perpetrators lf domestic abuse jumped massively when coercive control was included in the definition

I think we hold women to a different standard because they do usually fit that standard! However there are some that don't and this should be taken into account. On the whole though men are more abusive and this is where the standard comes from in the first place. We didn't just decide we were going to term men as more abusive. Everybody knows it. To pretend otherwise invites misogyny. Women have a hard enough time as it is.

Psychosis can be present in abusive relationships. It wasn't a PP's fault that OP used the term incorrectly.
I also think it's not a coincidence that the OP came to MN AIBU and deliberately misrepresented the Depp case.
Abusive relationships need to be taken seriously and policed accordingly.
Whataboutery that dimishes the statistics on abuse enables authorities and society to continue to ignore it.

Just to say @AnObserverInThisDarkWorld there is a difference in a mutually toxic relationship and a domestic violence/stalking relationship - there will be very real power and control on one side and very real fear and loss of control on the other. So as others have said the AH JD case is not a clear cut example as they both acted abusively. That doesn't make her an abuser and him just a victim as in the cases op is referencing. So therefore it's not an appropriate example as JD was also highly abusive towards AH which I believe was proved in the closed court case. Funnily enough in cases involving a jury the majority of abusers get off with it using all the techniques jds counsel employed.

I think you raise a good point op regarding the fact that the majority of abusers are men (which is a fact no-one is denying) meaning the minority of cases the other way round get disbelieved.

this thread, in places, is following thenusual
pattern on here of excusing the abuser and blaming the victim. One poster I think said “I’m sorry that happened, but…” twice in the same post, and there are others too. I also think the derailing (must talk about abusive men) is par for the course

I think the post about patriarchy’s own goal is interesting and has some truth in it. I’d frame it more that men can be victims of toxic masculinity too (must be strong and brave, can’t be a victim). Is that self inflicted? No, but it is inflicted by “men” on other men.

@MaryShelleysMonster

I also think it's not a coincidence that the OP came to MN AIBU and deliberately misrepresented the Depp case

I'm very confused by this post. What are you implying exactly? And what did I "misrepresent" deliberately or otherwise.

This is a thread about female abusers. Amber Heard is a female abuser.

There are tapes of the woman telling him to stop being a baby about him hitting her. She cut off his finger. There are tapes showing the man was literally locking himself in the bathroom or moving to different hotel rooms to escape from her. She is heard ON TAPE saying "Tell the world Jonny, tell them! No one will believe you!". She was also arrested for physically assaulting a previous partner. The tapes clearly showed a pattern of manipulative abuse, where she guilt tripped him, told him he wasn't a real man and so on. It was horrendous.

The only evidence he abused her comes from her mouth: the same woman who was proved a liar multiple times on the stand. She even tried to pass off an abuse story someone else gave her as her own! Not only is she an abuser and pathological liar: she is also responsible for making REAL female abuse sufferers harder to believe.

A 'female' can abuse absolutely. But the fact is that it's much less likely for the 'female' to be the abuser. The odds are vanishingly small. But if you're being abused, seek help and get out.

almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

what a ridiculous statement, men can literally rape or murder and avoid prison. The legal process is shit for victims of crime regardless of gender

@Lavender14

Just to say @AnObserverInThisDarkWorldthere is a difference in a mutually toxic relationship and a domestic violence/stalking relationship

Read my lost above. Ms Heard was not "toxic". She was a domestic abuser and was psychologically, emotionally and physically abusing Mr Depp.

there will be very real power and control on one side and very real fear and loss of control on the other

Yes, and the person hiding in the bathroom is unlikely to be the one exerting the power and fear.

So as others have said the AH JD case is not a clear cut example as they both acted abusively

Many abuse victims can act abusively. My DP pushed his abuser and left bruises on her arms. Why? Because she had been in his house for over 4 hours, smashing his belongings, refusing to leave and threatening him with knives. That doesn't make HIM an abuser.

That doesn't make her an abuser and him just a victim as in the cases op is referencing

I am staying he was not an abuser because ive seen no evidence he was. I listened to all of it, read all the messages, heard all the testimonies and didn't hear either of them reference any abuse from him at all. There are tapes from the end of the marriage where he says "you cut off my finger" and she says "yes, but you made me do angry". Similarly he says "you keep getting physical. You punched me" and she says "I didn't punch you, I hit you" and excuses herself by saying it's his fault for walking away and "being a baby"

Do you HONESTLY believe that if he had done what she said he'd done that the conversations would not have sounded more like this?

Him: you cut off my finger
Her: yes but you raped me with a wine bottle, ripped out my hair and constantly punched me

Of course she would have done!!!

So therefore it's not an appropriate example as JD was also highly abusive towards AH which I believe was proved in the closed court case

It's a perfect example, because people really struggle to accept the obvious just because she's a woman. And no, it was never proved he was abusive AT ALL to her. For a start because it was a civil and not criminal case. For a second because it was a defamation suit against a newspaper and all they needed to prove is that they believed what they printed was true. In those circumstances, she can say whatever she likes. And most astonishingly, they had a live televised US trial where she failed to produce a shred of evidence that he ever abused her AT ALL.

I thought that as a whole, women are more prevalent as the perpetrators of both physical abuse and neglect towards children. Statistically it makes sense as they tend to be the primary caregivers.

For abuse that is considered severe physical abuse it leans more towards men.

For sexual abuse it is predominantly men.

For emotional abuse (which is hard to categorise ) it’s about 50/50.

The UK findings in the Depp case were clear including that Depp's team paid for posters to inundate social media pushing 'his' narrative.

@MaryShelleysMonster

The UK findings in the Depp case were clear

The UK Depp case was a defamation trial. Answering only one question:

"Could the newspaper have REASONABLY BELIEVED what they printed was true"

Answer: yes (because they had a supposed victim claiming it was true)

It was never "proven" to be true. That is not how defamation legislation works in the courts of England and Wales.

Similarly I could tell a newspaper YOU abused ME, and unless someone can prove you didn't (which is generally impossible as its one word against the other), it would not be defamation.

That's why newspapers are allowed to print almost anything - including many allegations later proved false. Unless you can prove they KNEW it was false.

Please think here. If Heard had a shred of evidence to support her claims, they would have been presented in the US trial.

As was abused by a female as a child. It is rarely taken seriously when an abuser is female.

My FiL was recently astonished when I said dh and I are physically afraid of my Mother.

I had to remind him that she physically abused me and dh has seen her angry and physically aggressive.

I am at peace that some jump to defend a woman because she's 'just a Mum, trying her best'. I moved 200 miles away, changed my name and will never see her again, so I don't need to convince anyone of anything.

If you want to rehash the Depp case, you can search for one of the many threads that already exist on here. You'll find both the cases discussed in depth and possibly (although I'm guessing not) see what you have misunderstood about the UK case and its findings.
If you're looking for support for yourself, then the NHS runs a men's advice line. Plus there is the ManKind initiative.
If you simply want to 'debate' about celebrity abuse cases then Reddit is probably better for that.

Wwll.you only have to look at the Lucy Letby,threads whilst most people accept she was guilty ,there is a very vocal minority who are determined she isn't and if she is it's everybody's fault but hers .

@MaryShelleysMonster

As I've clearly said all the way through the thread, I am a woman.

I understand the cases very well, no need to jump to patronising or trying to silence me because you've not got any evidence.

I've formed my view on evidence heard with my own ears out of Ms Heards mouth.

I think your leap to ignore my clearly stated gender, to levy clearly untrue accusations towards me, as well as the clearly observable facts of what you're discussing is a good indication of the desperation of some to be wilfully obtuse around female to male abuse.

@nobodysdaughternow

I am so terribly sorry x

Amber Heard was not an abuser.

How can you possibly know they're better at it than males?! You do know that even in physically abusive cases the men are coercively controlling? It doesn't go from a happy healthy relationship to him randomly battering her one day.

And the number of female abusers might have jumped up but it's still nowhere near the number of men, and there are tons of men out there who have never been caught or prosecuted for abuse. I know of a few personally myself.

I think all abusers are scum, regardless of gender. But female abusers aren't "better" at it.

Obviously, she was. There are audio tapes of her admitting physical abuse and engaging in psychological abuse.

I am not here to debate that case. Anyone wishing to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears is exactly the type of person this thread is about.

If people can quite literally hear tapes of people admitting cutting off someone's finger, hitting them, devaluing them, threatening them and telling them no one will believe them if they speak out, then it rather proves why its so hard for men to speak up.

Something I've noticed on here over the years is womens behaviour being more likely to be described as toxic rather than abusive.

My very first post on this thread, in case you missed it - 'Abusive relationships need to be taken seriously and policed accordingly. Whataboutery that dimishes the statistics on abuse enables authorities and society to continue to ignore it.'

Don't bother replying to me. I won't be back. I've replied throughout in good faith and have worked with charities working on DV in RL. I hope you get whatever you're looking for out of this thread. But if your expectation is rehashing the Depp case in a way that suits you, then it's unlikely you will. As I pointed out Reddit or X/Twitter would suit you better for that.

@x2boys

Wwll.youonly have to look at the Lucy Letby,threads whilst most people accept she was guilty ,there is a very vocal minority who are determined she isn't and if she is it's everybody's fault but hers

Yes... I also felt her age, gender, looks, class etc
played into this. As if she'd been 50+, poor, or "weird" people would have believed it, but their opinion is so blinded by their perceived notion of what a pretty young blonde girl might be, they can't see what she actually IS.

Your defence of Johnny Depp is disturbing. Abuse can happen on both sides in a relationship. When it comes to power dynamics, Depp wins hands down in both physicality and status. Having been the victim of abuse, it is the superior physical power of men that has been the clincher.

@MaryShelleysMonster

My very first post on this thread, in case you missed it - 'Abusive relationships need to be taken seriously and policed accordingly. Whataboutery that dimishes the statistics on abuse enables authorities and society to continue to ignore it.'

As has been clearly pointed out to you, YOU have not read the content of the thread. Talking about male victims is not "whataboutery".

Don't bother replying to me. I won't be back. I've replied throughout in good faith

No, you've not replied in good faith. You've said things which aren't true, and then three times now tried to silence us from discussing female abuse. Pointing me twice to Reddit, despite this thread being full of female abuse victims telling their very painful real life stories.