To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

FFS, if people keep describing abusive women as crazy, then they're more likely to be excused as their behaviour can be blamed on poor mental health. Ironically it seems to be those agreeing with the OP that are using the term most.

Fair point

I am using that term mainly because that seems to be the code word in culture for an abusive woman

Substantially true means the 'essential' or 'substantial' truth of the claim has been proven, to the civil standard. The balance of probabilities doesn't mean it's not proven, it just means the bar isn't as high as for a criminal case. There still has to be strong evidence! Defamation cases in the UK are weighted towards the claimant, so the fact that this case was won on a truth defence is not something you can just shrug off.

But all of this takes place against a backdrop of millennia of misogyny where women have been painted as liars, deceitful, weak and prone to corruption (Eve anyone? Delilah?) and so men have an inherent advantage in our society in that they are naturally seen as more truthful, honest and morally strong and the voices of authority. Most judges, police officers etc are men. Power matters.

I understand where you are coming from, but I am not sure it is helpful.

I think the point is that women do claim power even in these circumstances - my experience is that they work just on the fringes and using these power structures for their own gain. They manipulate children, play the victim with false accusations (I hate that phrase but is is a tactic used in these abusive circumstances), conduct smear campaigns, harass people etc. It seemed to me that when you come across one of these women, you can see that they understand the power dynamics perfectly and are still able to use them to their advantage - i.e. through smear campaigns, through how we regard children etc.

It was me! And yes, massive problem.

Which is why the posters who always say men commit 90+ % of violent crime and 95+% of sexual crime are ignoring that those statistics are based on Police reports, charging, and conviction rates.

We already know male on female rape Police reports, charges and convictions are not in any way reflective of the actual scale of rape in this country.

And the same applies to female perpetrators of abuse, violence and sexual abuse/violence who are even less likely to be reported than men in many instances.

There are a huge number of female abuse perpetrators out there who aren't 'officially' recognised or documented.

As much as men? No. But a significant number? More than the crime statistics tell us? Absolutely.

I have known a few men who were abused by women. One was not believed at all until he was at a friend's house and his wife rang them, screaming and banging furniture, to tell them he was beating her up. They finally believed his story. Another man I know had to sneak down the road and hide for days in a friend's house to avoid being beaten up. he was so ashamed, he refused to go to the police. And someone I know has an ongoing absolutely terrifying ordeal with a female stalker, including threats on her life, having to move to safe houses, being unsafe to go into work. The woman was imprisoned for her stalking but is out now and back at it.

Treatment of reporting of abuse should not be different according to sex. There may be different ways of operating but they are no less of an ordeal to the victim.

I have said several times that of course males are capable of this. I have never denied that coercive control is a major component of domestic abuse.

What you seem incapable of seeing is that this aspect of abuse is something that women are just as capable of. This is the major problem in this thread and society I general. To perceive that a woman is incapable of these behaviours undermines victims regardless of their sex.

The pp who mentions the links in lesbian relationships absolutely highlights this.

And once again to be clear I never said that males are not the main perpetrators. they absolutely are however the automatic discounting of females as perpetrators of abuse is wrong

There were some shocking stats

And then a discussion about why it's not known. Which was basically "it's not seen as the same because abuse is typically male led. Also homophobia"

It really does seek to highlight there is a significant problem that is being missed

This last paragraph is spot on. It’s of no help
or comfort to a male victim to be told “sorry that happened but most victims are women”

if a woman is attacked by a stranger you wouldn’t say “that’s awful but most attacks are by someone known to the victim”

being a minority shouldn’t mean having your experience minimised.

I don't really get your Amber Heard reference. I didn't watch that trial but from what I heard she abused him but he also abused her but all people focused on was her abuse to him whereas he was given every excuse under the sun.
But going back to what your saying.. I have a son who is 21, the worrying thing I've noticed with the few relationships he has had is how controlling girls have been with him.. Wanting to look through his phone/not liking his female friends ect.
I overheard a conversation in my staff canteen between some girls age range 18/25 and they were saying that social media has made them so insecure that they'd only stay with a boy if he agreed to these controlling rules.

And tbh despite a few posts, this thread has broadly been a decent discussion. Normally threads on male victims of dv and female perpetrators decend into a list of reasons why men can’t be victims. This one is better.

Indeed. But your examples serve to demonstrate that physical advantage, whether that's due to an acquired skill in combat, or to being able bodied, is a significant factor in the dynamics of abuse.
The OP would have us believe that being physically (or financially or socially) at an advantage is 'nothing to do with the dynamics of an abusive relationship'; and even goes so far as to state that being physically weaker isnt a reason people are unable to leave, and that the only factors of significance that trap people in abusive relationships are psychological - trauma bonds, grooming etc.
You examples demonstrate powerfully that physical disadvantage absolutely matters. And typically that disadvantage lies with the woman.

But there's also a huge amount of male perpetrators who aren't part of the crime statistics

You literally said women are better at controlling and manipulating. So basically saying that women sufferers don't suffer as much because the men aren't as good as it

I've seen numerous threads like that.

I literally put 'I hit DH Mumsnet' into Google and this thread came up as the first result. There are many, many more that are more recent.

OP said she threw a candlestick at her DP during an argument about going to his parents house and it drew blood.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/1131751-I-have-just-hit-my-DH

Look at some of the posts on the first page of responses (I haven't looked beyond).

1. "oh dear, I think you need to apologise and speak to someone about your temper'

2. "you are stressed, which is not good, but no excuse for picking something up and throwing it

see your GP on monday and get help with your stress/ anxiety/mood"

3. "Oh dear Sad

Nothing you can do except wait for him to contact you"

"You need to have a think about this, why you did it, etc.
And what you can do (YOU, not what you would like him to do / not do) to make sure you don't react violently ever again.
If there is a possibility that you could be depressed, that sometimes causes anger probles (it did when I was depressed - I was full of negativity and uncontrollable rage), then you could seek help fom your GP on Monday. Your GP could also advise about anger management courses - or you could seek counselling.
You need to be serious about this never happening again"

4. "You need to apologise, completely and without any reservations. You need to seek help for your anger management issues, violence is never acceptable- try your GP first.

Then you need to wait and see how your DH feels,and whether he wants to give you another chance. I would imagine that it will be very hard for him to trust you again. Think about how you would feel if it had been the other way round"

That's just a few. And yes, some were more direct and saying OP was abusive.

BUT If any female poster had posted that incident with them as the victim, that there was a disagreement about seeing family and the DH threw a candlestick at them which drew blood, they are told they are in a highly abusive relationship, would have been told their life was likely in danger and they should call the Police immediately and get out of the house NOW.

They wouldn’t be told he should see his GP, he might be stressed or despressed or whatever other advice was given.

In this instance the OP used a weapon to assault her DP so the ' physical power imbalance' idea of women perpetrating violence on men as not as serious or dangerous is moot really.

It's interesting as lot of films have a female manipulative, stalker either an ex after revenge or infatuated and killing off the female rival. Though female emotional, physical abusers are usually portrayed as parent not a partner. It would make more interesting drama to see how the dynamic plays out with male partner as victim and why the assumed physical upperhand doesn't help and are the reasons for staying the same as women's. I assume the stigma of male lead as 'weak' means it's not as popular to portray as female victim.

It's a shame the stalking that you had the evidence for wasn't taken seriously by the police, I could understand police being sympathetic to crying to diffuse situation but you'd expect them to go by evidence once taken her away. Athough an online friend had some guy she'd never met in person stalking her for years, loads of abusive messages, calls, turning up where she lived. I can't remember now what he'd finally done for it to get taken to court, when released from prison he resumed the stalking and was recalled.

I saw on news about coroner case with the police officer cam footage attending DV incident where woman was later killed. She'd phoned police to get abusive partner out, but because when they turned up one talked to partner in kitchen she was too scared to say much. The partner was crying, policeman who'd been chatting to him said he thought he seemed like nice bloke so accepted his explantion of the situation and left him. I think the police as a whole need lot more training around various types of abuse/rape to be more understanding of psychology of these crimes and how trauma effects the victim and there needs to be consequences for perpetrators.

I think it's difficult as outsider as often there isn't any evidence just a person's word to go on and I've been on dates where very early in they tell me ex was controlling & abusive but a lot looked for sympathy and to blame ex for breakup which I found odd just as id not behave that way.

The disparity isn't really enormous though

And in magistrates courts, female magistrates outnumber men.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/diversity-of-the-judiciary-2022-statistics/diversity-of-the-judiciary-legal-professions-new-appointments-and-current-post-holders-2022-statistics#:~:text=the%20past%20year.-,Judges%20in%20post,points%20higher%20than%20in%202014.

I didn't say only or indeed always.

I replied to the statement that they have absolutely nothing to do with it which is quite frankly laughable. I'm incredulous that someone could have such a staggeringly ignorant view.

What happened to you was terrible.
However I've still said YABU, because the high volume of male abusers makes it hard for anyone to be believed. It's normalised, or ignored. Most women who have been abused by men also don't have it taken seriously. Most women who have been stalked by men also have had troubles having people take it seriously - even if they are believed, they're also not supported and so are still more likely to be killed.

Making this about 'women are bad too' is a get out clause. The fact that you reference Amber Heard is a bit of a red flag to me, because while she sounds like a fairly horrible person, there was also at least one video shown of him throwing things at her and grabbing her hair, and both of them have been charged by the police in the past due after violent or extremely destructive arguments with previous partners - and then she was absolutely vilified in the media, while he was cheered. So it's hardly a good example of women being believed over men.

Yes!

And this is the point I try to make on so many of these threads, that most people are not aware of the scale of abuse, violence and CSA perpetuated by women.

Is it on the scale of men? No. But it IS significant and not a few outliers. When childline first came out with their report about the calls they were receiving about CSA from children, up to 25% of the calls were about female CSA perpetrators.

https://www.cypnow.co.uk/news/article/childline-reports-rise-in-calls-about-female-sexual-abuse

This hasn't changed.

I AM a feminist so believe that women should be treated equally. That includes when they perpetrate offences that harm other people

Actually I said some women can be better at it. That does not in any shape imply that women do not suffer at the hand of abusers as I have clarified several times. You seem incapable of seeing that some abusive women can be incredibly manipulative, controlling and exert large amount of suffering onto their victims

Or are you the point that you need to be physically larger for it to be abuse? In which case do we go back to the 90s take on abuse where its not abuse if he never hit her.

Yep. We know.

Is that a reason to ignore the females who also are?, and more likely to be?

I don't think it is.

Saying 'but the men' while discounting the female perpetrators is not only ridiculous, it's dangerous.

Which is a completely pointless statement because some men can be better at it?! I am not denying that women can be abusive at all. Men can do all of those things to the same level.