This is the Handmaids Tale in real-time

[Crapsummer2023]

If I were living in Texas, I’d start making moves to leave soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/texas-lawyer-abortion-ban-procedure-patient-information

You have the right to be offended by abortion. It does not give you the right to take away the option from women.

But it’s not just a discussion?

It’s personal, lived experience for us.

How do you not get that? I mean, I have my suspicions….

@GodDammitCecil it was sadly also personal lived experience for Savita Halappanavar...

I am tbh. Can’t answer all questions today. Some require expert medical advice/legal brains which I can’t speak on tbh.

however, I feel like the majority of my answers should give people an idea on where i stand. I understand that these things can be a spectrum so obviously I don’t speak for all pro lifers

I get it which is why I apologise if it’s struck a core with you.

However, this is a discussion on mumsnet…

You are not a prolifer. You support the death of mothers. You support the dismal existence of uncared, unloved or unsupported babies. You are pro birth at all costs.

If looking at my posts suggest I’m Christian…but you’re a Christian- I’m unsure about the comment you’re trying to make here? Respectfully I can proudly say I am a Christian.

As a Christian, can I ask where it says that taking the life of another is okay?

What is backing your stance?

Can you answer just one question which doesn't require expert medical or legal knowledge that has been put on here - namely, do you oppose abortion when continuing the pregnancy means the mother will die, or that the baby will be born alive but will die shortly after birth of a condition that causes the baby acute pain and suffering?

but you're not "pro life" you're pro forced birth. You should own it.

Your views are your views and you can live by them if you like. You have no moral or ethical rights to try to force them on anyone else.

thb it is very very easy to be a pro-forced-birther because you don't have to consider any nuance at all. Your belief is that at the point of conception the woman's life only has value as a forced incubator. It is secondary to the foetus and secondary to the wishes of all those people that want her to have no bodily autonomy.

In that case, i posit that those women should stop paying taxes and have any responsibilities towards society. They should be supported and looked after like waygu beef cattle: pampered and supported with no need unmet. Because they have zero rights to anything else.

How many children have you personally adopted Babochan88?

This is a good but really tough question. If I’m completely honest this is an area in which I can’t give you a 100% answer when it means guaranteed end of life for the mother.

But generally, the answer is that I’m always pro life. That has been tested in my own personal life and I have seen many family and friends have abortions for their own medical or otherwise reasons.

Abortions are a hard and difficult thing. And no one does it lightly and easily I’m sure. I personally am Pro life and will fight for babies because nobody has the right to take away life. Whether young (abortion) or old (euthanasia).

If I’m completely honest this is an area in which I can’t give you a 100% answer when it means guaranteed end of life for the mother.

Which translates to - there are situations where you are comfortable with the mother dying

So you aren't pro-life, just pro-forced birth

We as society always speak and try to enforce our moral views. Pro choicers fight for the right to choose and pro lifers fight too

comfortable is definitely not the right word.

But yes, I’m passionate about babies being birthed and living good and safe lives. I’m passionate about people living safe and fulfilling lives too.

call it pro life/birth whatever… but pro lifers will continue to fight for women and babies to live good and safe lives

Thanks for your honesty. So you are saying that you would force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term even when she knows it means her child's only experience of life will be a few hours of agony before a painful death? Is that really the Christian view?

@Babochan88, how do your passionate views work when you know that carrying on with the pregnancy means that either the mother or the child or both won't live a good and safe life?

The right to choose is not enforcing a moral view, its allowing everyone to make their own choice based on their own views

Pro-life is enforcing a moral view, its taking away everyones choice based on one set of peoples views.

And given those views are often religious (and I am Christian myself) and many people are not religious or of the same religion its often an incredibly unwelcome imposition.

I wonder how welcoming you would be if you needed regular blood transfusions to live but Jehovahs witnesses had successfully campaigned to stop blood transfusions because it goes against their beliefs.

Or if mental health illnesses were no longer treated with anti depressants etc because the accepted wisdom was that if you followed the tenents of Islam you could not be depressed.

Or perhaps you need a heart transplant but some Jews believe that being brain dead is not being dead and that therefore taking a heart from a brain dead patient would be morally wrong.

Are you going to happily accept these limitations to your medical treatment because it fulfils someone else's moral code, taking away your right to chose even if your views are different?

I am sure you are going to throw “thou shalt not kill” at me @Babochan88 so I am. It going to bite in that front. I will discuss a couple of lessons with you if I may

“Thus says the Lord of hosts, render true judgements, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.”

how do you interpret this?

because I read this as teaching us to be especially kid to those who are suffering because they need it the most. Hold back on judging them for what is going on in their life, and support them instead with live and kindness

you have already admitted it’s a difficult and emotional decision for many.. would you not count these people as suffering?

I don’t be particularly take issue with you being against the idea of abortion. It is really sad and I would hate to be in that position where I would have to consider myself. But what I take issue with is the idea you should deny it to people when the alternative option is incredibly cruel for everyone involved (eg. A child that will not survive birth)

and again I think that pushing these beliefs for the sake of God is giving all Christians a bad name when actually many of us try to be kind, understanding and empathetic people

@Babochan88

I’m passionate about babies being birthed and living good and safe lives.

How do you square that with your confirmation upthread that you believe a woman should have to carry a baby to term and deliver that baby even if due to medical issues it's known that the baby will definitely die during or shortly after birth?

but pro lifers will continue to fight for women and babies to live good and safe lives

Except where you decide its better for the mother to die. So there is no way you can say you are fighting for womens to live good and safe lives when you actively also say you would choose for a mother to die if necessary.

Yet you call other people the murderers.

I’m passionate about babies being birthed and living good and safe lives.

if you believe every baby from a forced birth lives a good and safe life then I hate to tell you, this is not reality.

I would rather see someone have an abortion over being forced to have the child and then neglecting it, with the then traumatised child being forced into an already strained care system.

Also, if I was seriously unwell and had to go through with a pregnancy, to then die and be survived by two small children and a newborn… would you say their lives are “good” having lost their mother. With one of them having to grow up know their mother died because of them?

I'm not going to argue the ins and outs of the abortion 'spectrum' because I believe in abortion on demand

You are entitled to your beliefs and I to mine - BUT you already have a choice - not to ever have a termination - your beliefs, imposed on others, denies them a choice - I don't think you have the right to do that. Termination is a medical procedure and solely between a woman and her Dr - it's not a moral issue