This is the Handmaids Tale in real-time

[Crapsummer2023]

If I were living in Texas, I’d start making moves to leave soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/texas-lawyer-abortion-ban-procedure-patient-information

"Passepartoute
So what do you suggest we should do about miscarriages? If foetuses are to have the same status as babies who have been born, should we be holding an inquest for every single miscarriage? Should we be making the mothers liable for not looking after their health adequately or even changing them with murder or manslaughter? It would be really helpful to know how far you take this argument.

I understand we have different view points but surely you know the answer to your question is no."

How would you legislate it though? Because that's exactly what would happen. Miscarriages would be seen as suspicious and there would be a real possibility they would be treated as murder or manslaughter. Women's healthcare especially in early pregnancy would be compromised.

That's not a world I want to be part of. I've never had an abortion and am going through the menopause so not likely to be an issue for me. But I knew that if I ever was in the position to need one, I had the choice. And I was free to make the choice that was right for me.

In El Salvador there are women serving 30 year jail terms for having a miscarriage. That's what @Babochan88 wants.

Right now there are many people dying slowly and horrifically. Why haven’t you gone out and taken them out of their misery - because you don’t have the right to.

Right now there are many people dying slowly and horrifically. Why haven’t you gone out and taken them out of their misery - because you don’t have the right to.

I know my opinions differ from the vast majority. I honestly don’t want anyone to think I’m judging them or casting stones. I would never ever fight for women to be condemned if they have had an abortion. All love, respect, support and help should absolutely be given.

But your comment is absolutely ridiculous.

@Babochan88

How many children do you have, @Babochan88 ?

@Babochan88 so you agree that the article and the intention behind trying to get hold of the data is wrong?

The point of the thread after all is specifically about the article and how frightening that is.

Many of us who believe that abortions should be an option also believe people dying from slow horrific deaths should be allowed other options to

Seriously and I mean seriously are you honestly going to completely sum up the billions or pro lifers that exist on this planet with that comment you have up there? As in pro lifers exist in the different countries, genders, languages, religions etc.

Im aghast at such a sweeping generalisation. Honestly.

Yes, You’re correct. Who gives a crap about the millions of babies in foster care. Or the babies born with debilitating conditions or born addicted to drugs. Who cares about the women or girls? Not us - no. All we care about is stopping abortion. And we’re definitely not going to do anything to help at all stages.

Do you think us pro lifers believe this?
Surely you can’t believe that….surely?

Surely you would know there are millions of pro lifers globally trying to fight trafficking, Chile abuse, rape, homelessness, poverty etc? Surely you would know that????

Honestly? I would if I could and of course if that's what they wanted. I don't know of any person who would prefer to stay alive screaming in utter agony, just waiting to die that wouldn't take the option of being euthanised with dignity if they could. We take the compassionate decision to euthanise animals that are in pain with no possibility of a future quality of life. I wish we could extend that same compassion to the two legged animal.

Could you really stand there and watch a tiny baby screaming in agony dying in front of you for hours, maybe days before it finally writhes its last, rather than it going peacefully without any knowledge of such horror? No mother of normal competence I know of would choose the former if they had the option of the latter.

If a foetus counts as a person why doesn’t child support begin at conception?

Oh bugger off and stop drinking their koolaid.

@MustBeNapTime exactly. Tbh I’m finding some of these comments very upsetting having been exactly there. No mother would choose that for her child.

This is before Roe vs wade it's Texas heart beat law - she explains the increase in infant deaths as a result.

@Ilikeviognier
My sister has twins and one almost didn't make it and has some residual issues now. I just can't imagine having to make the decision you had to, my heart honestly breaks for you. Many people like Babochan can say what they think they would do or have an opinion on what others should do, but reality is very different.

My comment is not ridiculous. It points out the real life consequences of banning abortions. El Salvador isn't the only country where this is happening. That is fact.

When it comes to abortion, there are two lives involved. Your choice means you do not stand for real, living women. You would prefer them to suffer, die from unsafe pregnancies and go to jail for having a miscarriage if they are unfortunate enough to live in a country where the law bans abortion. That's misogyny writ large.

I was going to say - I don't understand the OP's point there because a lot of people do believe that people shouldn't have to be subjected to a painful end of life condition if they don't want to. Trouble is that a lot of the whole argument over life is wrapped up in religious beliefs that not everyone shares or believes in.

@MustBeNapTime Thankyou. I appreciate that.

Yes, people that fight for babies to live are truly awful. It’s crazy how pro lifers are seen as evil…but the murder of babies is seen as good. Over the last few years there’s been a strong societal brainwashing which is staggering to see.

I shudder to think what else that is wrong will be called right by society or what else will be redefined by society.

To be honest, things are changing right before our eyes. Before you know it, things that you yourself know to be true and good and right will be called wrong and evil. But just because it’s legalised or just because a motto is used (ie my body my choice) doesn’t make it right. Can you think of any other things that are being redefined - with a motto attached?

Why do you think these strategies (legalisation, mottos etc) are used? Is it to change your mind about things you intrinsically know are right or true? And to get you to believe something else…?

@Babochan88 typical strawman argument. Nobody, however pro choice they are, wants more abortions. I'd love it if there were 100% failsafe, side effect free contraception for both men and women. I'd love it if men stepped up. I'd love it if men completely stopped raping women. I'd love it if there were zero pregnancies where a much wanted baby developed conditions incompatible with life. I'd love it if no pregnant woman ever developed a health condition that meant the pregnancy could kill her. That would be great.

But we don't live in that world. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, the best way to do it - as evidenced by those countries where abortion rates are very low - is to provide excellent sex education, a strong economy including a welfare safety net, easy and affordable access to contraception, excellent and affordable health and maternity care.

Banning abortions just leads women to seek out unsafe abortions - and die of them. That's not pro life, unless you're a very warped individual indeed.

@Babochan88 Your views disgust me. And having watched my grandmother die a horrific death in hospital just a few months ago, I’m absolutely in favour of euthanasia and hope that it’s an option when it’s my time to go.

There is a lot more I’d like to say to you but quite frankly you are not worth it.

Wow @Babochan88 really showing how little they care for their fellow beings.

@Babochan88
You’re a world of ignorance to female health and children’s social care. I think posters here are being so patient with you.

Not long ago, my waters went and I had false labour at 5 months pregnant. The baby was not yet viable and had no chance of living outside. There was absolutely nothing they could do to stop labour or save my pregnancy, only watch and wait for labour progress, for infection to set in, or wait until 6 month until the baby had a small chance of survival. Thankfully they stayed put.

But at the time, I was devastated. I was told womb infection can turn to sepsis very quickly, therefore if infection presented, to save my life, they would need to deliver the baby. That was my ONLY option. Deliver the non-viable baby or get v sick and potentially die myself with the non-viable baby. And for that, I would be a murderer? How dare you.
I’d be a devastated, but alive woman who had lost a much wanted pregnancy. There are scenarios much worse than this that people must go through.

In case you missed my question - how many children do you have @Babochan88 ?

Where do you stand on saving mother v baby at birth @Babochan88 ?

because during my last pregnancy this is something I seriously thought about, having several serious complications.

I would rather be here for two children over not here for three. Have you considered that it’s not just the unborn baby but the mothers other children that may need considering?

if I was saved but the baby died is that murder?

what if they save the baby over me, would that be murdering me?