This is the Handmaids Tale in real-time

[Crapsummer2023]

If I were living in Texas, I’d start making moves to leave soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/texas-lawyer-abortion-ban-procedure-patient-information

“The important word there is "expecting". No one expects a collections of cells because by the time those cells mature at approx 40 weeks, a baby will be delivered.”

Just so you know, babies don’t always get to 40 weeks?! mine didn’t. She’s now 7.

I’m pro choice, but Jesus!

You believe that so you shouldn't have an abortion. I don't. So I should be able to.

And you're ignoring the point made by me and others, that even if you have moral objections, the way to reduce abortions is NOT to ban abortion. That doesn't stop abortions. It just stops safe abortions. And it stops doctors saving women's lives when they're pregnant. Women's rights groups in Nicaragua estimate that about 4000 women a year seek medical care after unsafe abortions in a country where abortion is banned in all cases. 4000 women is more than the total number of abortions in some countries that ALLOW safe abortion. About 30,000 abortions in total in Nicaragua even though it's illegal.

So you can call it murder and ban it completely but all that does is hurts and kills more women.

If you actually care, which most people who want to ban abortion don't, support women's right, support children once they're here, support sex education and contraception.

Whilst this is abhorrent @CantFindTheBeat you are wildly misinformed (or talking bollocks where I come from) biscuit has a point somewhat there is a lot of minimising of what an abortion is. As women we should have all the facts and you can see and hear a heartbeat on a scan quite from 6.5/7 weeks and can see arm buds from 7 weeks…10 weeks is very much more than a collection of cells.

Yes, more than a collection of cells, but not a baby, not formed or viable.

Any folks calling women murderers here, I wish you’d just get lost. These views are not pro life, they’re just pro birth.

What ‘life’ is in store for these forced births! There’s no big mass demonstration to provide for those babies once they’re born. How they’ll be brought up, what life and opportunity they’ll have, what difficulty and trauma they’ll need to wade through. They DGAF, just once they’re born.

I’m sure these “pro-life” folk will adopt and care for all these children of forced births.

I’m sure these “pro-life” folk will adopt and care for all these children of forced births.

Interestingly, I used to be part of a program which housed young mums with challenges. Like fostering but with teens and babies. The mums had to have housing issues AND additional challenges (drugs, DV etc.). Every single one of the families who housed these young women was pro-choice. Every one. We were supporting young women who had no resources to keep their babies and we all thought they should have the right to do that.

I don't know where all the vehement pro-forced-birthers were but they weren't housing the teen mums.

I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks. It was absolutely just a clump of cells. By no stretch of the imagination could anyone pretend it was a baby.

You're correct. Abortion in the uk is legal but it shouldn’t. We as a society always police what other people do with their bodies. Which is why we demand Justice when we find out that someone has murdered another person.

in that case it wouldn’t be my body my choice, because no. You cannot take the life of someone else’s. Which is why when someone kills a pregnant woman you also need to factor in the life of the child that’s also been killed.

Abortion is wrong

many Pro-choicers adopts and foster. Maybe not where you were but may do

Ok @Babochan88

If you are arbitrary about your decisions?

What would you suggest happen in these circumstances, @Babochan88?

Woman who has been raped
14 year old girl with no family support
Woman with mental health problems who would be suicidal if pregnancy continued

Banning abortions should definitely happen. The excuse of people will travel elsewhere isn’t a reason to justify it and continue on.

There are many things that have been made illegal. People still do them though - does that mean we make it legal? What a sad state for society if things that are truly destructive to a human become legal.

In all these cases the baby must be delivered and support and help given to both woman and baby. They don’t have to raise the child. But yes, the life should be spared.

You're talking in 'musts and shoulds '.

Be specific. What needs to happen, and how?

I didn't know abortions could be born alive. That is horrific. The op is right.

I've never thought about it in depth, having never been in the position to need one and then when coming off contraception to ttc, starting early meno about a year after 🙄

What happened to the ones born alive? Were they left to die naturally? Were they given medication to kill them?

The forced birthers certainly are out in force today.

I’m beyond the age of having to worry about this for myself but for every woman and girl facing unwanted pregnancy, I will continue to fight for your right to CHOOSE.

We are not idiots who do not know what is involved in an abortion. Pregnancy and childbirth are profoundly life changing and no woman or girl should be made to go through it against her will.

If you want to reduce the number of abortions, campaign for free contraception, campaign for more support for women in poverty. Campaign for refuges for women and girls subject to sexual violence. But you will not eliminate abortion. You might eliminate safe abortion, and if you think that is a victory, do not even dare to think yourself “pro-life”.

I don’t believe in the sanctity of life (I eat meat, swat flies, etc), so your sort of talk has zero impact on me, and many like me.

Luckily I live in a country that has recently made it easier to access abortion (not the UK).

The US is very backward in so many ways.

It’s interesting how the use of language is used to create space and take away responsibility. You can call it a foetus, a clump of cells, an embryo, a baby (all are right descriptions) but it still - if everything goes to plan- should develop into a baby.

Regardless of what week it’s at, it should still be protected. Yes, we are truly crazy for wanting to fight for people to live - how awful of us.

Murder should never be a choice that people have. Whether inside the body or out.

Sadly for you @Babochan88 - whether legal or illegal- abortion will always exist. Always.

If a women does not want to be pregnant, she will ensure that happens.

Completely reductionist.

Yes because, pro lifers don’t also care about people in poverty, sexual violence, in care, abuse, trafficked etc… ??

Of course they do, they’re just doing the work rather than stating their political/religious or ethical leanings !!

Whether or not abortion is eliminated, people will always fight for babies to live and not just live, but to thrive and live happy and safe lives. At every stage of the journey pro lifers are working hard.

I think a big point here is, I, personally would not want to birth a child who medical professionals have told me has a condition that is incompatible with life and will die outside the womb. I feel it's unfair to create that suffering and to be honest I wouldn't wish to experience that trauma.

However I would never, ever, force another woman in the same position to abort that child. Maybe she thinks a miracle will happen, maybe she thinks it is the will of God and she will see it through, or she just wants to hold the child. And I totally support any woman to do this. No opponent of forced birth wants forced abortion, yet the other side wants to force cruel outcomes, even to the point in America that children will be be left without their mothers because mums will die from totally preventable causes due to these abortion bans.

And they are bans, states have often made 'exceptions' for rape or danger to the mother unusable and hospital lawyers have told obstetricians not to act because they could still be open to prosecution. Look up Jessica Valenti, Abortion Every Day - she is a reputable journalist dedicating herself up reporting the consequences of abortion bans.

Where are all these adoptive and foster parents going to come from?

Luckily I live in a country that has recently made it easier to access abortion (not the UK).

We are probably in the same place!

Having teen daughters I am delighted they have a choice. Previously they needed to travel for abortions, who travelled? Those with money.

Banning abortion only affects the poor who can’t afford an abortion and can’t afford the travel.

We don’t need more poverty.

Interesting posters on this thread.. Welcome to MN.

Texas is now the home to some huge west coast firms like Tesla, Hewlett Parkard, Oracle. Others have gone to Florida who is now right wing.

They’re literally telling their female staff they are unimportant and don’t deserve female health services. It’s not just the right to abortion: there is a ripple effect in all areas including early pregnancy care and contraception.

@Babochan88

If the mum doesn’t want the child, should she be pushed into keeping it for a while to make sure?

If not, what about the fourth trimester? What about the mental health of an unwanted child?

It doesn't happen. In late term abortions, medication is given to stop the heart precisely to prevent this scenario and they check for lack of heartbeat. In the ONS official report it not only given figures, it also details methods used and in all cases the fetal heartbeat is stopped before progressing to the next stage.

In the UK the vast majority of abortions take place within the first trimester with only around 1% occurring around 20 weeks (which would coincide the anomaly scan that takes place at 18-22 weeks). 0.01% of abortions takes place after 24wks (around 240 a year) and all are done on serious medical grounds. The vast, vast majority of women are terminating their pregnancies at a stage where there is no possibility of a heartbeat outside of the woman's body and for the ones terminating at later stages there are medical reasons for doing so and steps are taken to stop the heartbeat first.