To dread winter with my toddler?

[Summermeadowflowers]

Since DS started sleeping through, which was around 18 months, he’s woken early and this is often around 530. Tweaking bedtimes and naps doesn’t seem to make any difference to this. Sometimes he’ll have a spate of 630-7 wakeups but then will start waking earlier and earlier until you’re back at 530, or earlier.

It was miserable enough last winter but now we have a baby as well. Last night I woke to express milk at 230. Then DD woke at 330, I got her settled again at 4, then bloody DS woke at half five.

DH does take him when he can but if he’s working away or even if he’s in the office he has to leave at just before 7. It’s the longest morning ever before we can go out then we go out somewhere then DS gets really tired and stroppy in the afternoons because he is so tired.

No point to this, just a moan. I do love DS very much but I hate this particular habit he has so much, and I worry about DD as it inevitably disturbs her and the last thing I want is her being in this awful pattern too.

At that age, DD also largely didn't nap. We were putting her to bed at 6pm. And she'd sleep for 13 hours (sometimes would wake up in the night, but settled very quickly). If she did nap, she'd then land up going to bed ridiculously late as otherwise she couldn't sleep. 6pm bedtimes sound great, but in practice are really difficult to manage so we were quite pleased that phase only lasted for a few months and we could slowly inch bedtime back to around 7/7:30.

I agree with PP though - Peppa Pig is your friend here! :) When ours were going through the crack of dawn starts phase, we tended to let them watch tv while one of us was half snoozing on the couch. Anything to get a bit more sleep and a later start to the day. With DS, we'd then be out the door as early as possible - for a while, I was doing things like meeting friends with similarly early start toddlers for breakfast at 7:30 on a regular basis (although DS was more like 18 months than nearly 3).

No idea what consequences I could give for shouting that he’d actually understand, especially when already groggy and difficult.

He isn’t a little baby but you do sometimes have to be practical, no one is going to get any rest with DS crying hysterically in his room. I am not comfortable with that anyway. I’m not sure if he’ll like audiobooks or not to be honest. I’ll try a Tomie or Yoto but I have an uncomfortable feeling it will be a five minute wonder!

Honestly I think you need to cut yourself some slack. Controversial maybe but I would absolutely cut out the 2.30am pumping and if that means more formula so be it. If the toddler wakes 5.30am I’d stick the TV on and snooze as best I could on the sofa. The better rested you are the easier everything else becomes and you’re no good to anyone burnt out.

And mine didn’t listen to the flipping gro clock either! I sorted their early waking but taking long haul connecting flights for a holiday and messing their body clocks up so much it caused a hard reset 🤣

He doesn’t watch TV @InTheRainOnATrain . Which makes it an even longer day! The pumping … I’ll know when I want to stop, it probably does seem mad but it is important to me and I do want to try to get to six months if I can. It’s hard pumping in the day so I need those night expresses.

I didn't think that DS (now 5) would understand/comply with a gro clock when we introduced it at 2.5, I thought it was a waste of time, but he somehow DID.

The key IMO is to make it manageable, and start them off to succeed. Don't set it to 7am and expect it to work, that's too much. Start by setting it for 5:20. So that when he wakes up at 5:30, it's already yellow and then you do lots of praise and happiness that he waited for the sun.

Once he's on board with this, set it at 5:35 - if possible pick a time where he'll sometimes wake up after, and sometimes wake up just before. If he comes through when it's still the moon, you just take him back to bed, show him the moon, and reassure him it won't be long. I used to then just pretend to go back to bed - sit in the hallway. Again praise when they wait, even if they had previously got up too early, if they went back to bed and waited, then that's praise worthy even if you feel annoyed. Because it's literally only a couple of minutes that they have to wait, I didn't feel too bad about it. Keep it at this setting until they get the idea then increase it slowly.

No idea what consequences I could give for shouting that he’d actually understand, especially when already groggy and difficult.

I think you’ve got really low expectations of your son. An almost 3 year old should very easily be able to understand certain rules like “no shouting”. They won’t remember the rule every single time but you are acting like you can’t say anything to him, discipline him or make any changes because he wouldn’t understand but you really aren’t giving him any credit.

Maybe but that still doesn’t answer the question, does it? What consequences should there be for a crying child at 530 in the morning?

@BertieBotts that was a very long post and I am pleased it worked for you but honestly it does not work for every child. DS just ignored it.

@Summermeadowflowers there aren’t consequences for getting up early, there is lots of praise and rewards for staying quietly in his room until an acceptable time (this is where the gro clock or equivalent and star chart comes in )

My consequences comment was for the poster who said her 5 year old shouts and they have to get to him quickly before he wakes his 2 year old brother. That is insane to me (unless there is some sort of special needs)

DS would never stay quietly in his room

Generally, if he wakes at what I’d call a ‘normal’ time (anything from about 620 onwards) he is fine. 545-615 he can be a bit surprised/shouty but Ok. The 530 wake ups are tears, calls for mummy and confusion. I don’t think he’s intending to be ‘naughty’ or disturb anyone, he’s just all over the place.

@Dramatic i know, but a poster above has been talking about consequences and you did say something about ‘firm boundaries.’

‘Boundaries’ is a bit of a MN buzzword at the moment and personally (it could just be me) I don’t find it very helpful with this particular age group, mostly because many toddlers are very mischievous and if you draw a line in the sand they will put their foot over it with a grin and a ‘what are you gonna do about it then?’ And so you have got conflict right there and inevitably end up in a battle you can’t win. If my ‘boundary’ is ‘no getting up before 6’ I haven’t won as my child will cry and disturb everyone anyway, all that’s happened is we have both lost.

Boundaries as children get older is different but with toddlers, especially ones that aren’t very verbal, it really is a question of managing / cajoling / communicating. It depends on the situation but something like this is just not going to be solved with a boundary.

Well to be fair, you didn't say "I've tried a gro clock and it didn't work" you said "a gro clock wouldn't work because he wouldn't understand it".

I was just sharing my experience, as I had the same assumption but it actually did work better than I thought it would.

@BertieBotts i did make it clear that I wasn’t seeking advice. Generally on here, if you say you’ve tried something someone just tells you that you did it wrong anyway. So I’ll just repeat that plenty of children don’t respond to Gro clocks. When DS first wakes very early, he’s confused and upset. He’d never understand or respond to anything in that moment.

DC1 understood the gro clock at 19 months - I thought it might have been too early to introduce it but I was pleasantly surprised. I can't remember how old DC2 was when we introduced it for her but she's been using it for ages and only just turned 3.

It's an extremely simple concept. Stars, stay in bed. Sun, get up. The vast majority of 2yos will understand it if you communicate clearly and stick to the rule.

Totally hear you about the winter morning starts. My toddler is the same.

Nothing I do changes his habits (although they do shift with time - I just have to wait it out).

The best way I've found to deal with that first one or two hours of the day is to make it as pleasant as possible.

We go to the lounge which I've made to totally toddler proof so he can roam about and play with his toys while I mong out on the sofa. He has his milk and banana, I have a tea. We have fairy lights and a little projection lamp with stars. Something not too loud on the TV (those Julia Donaldson animations on BBC are good - very poetic, nice music) and we just warm up for the day like that.

Not really a solution to your woes but slightly better than 'good morning! It's toddler time! Go go go!'

So basically - ‘Mine did, and all children are the same! So yours will too’ @NameChange30 ?

It is a simple concept but so are many things … doesn’t mean toddlers will comply.

Solidarity @daisydaredyou

As a PP said, understanding it and complying with it are two different things.

You've been getting increasingly irate with people saying it works surprisingly well and countless posts later, you have only just bothered to mention that you actually did try a gro clock! Would have saved yourself a lot of annoyance about all the posts about gro clocks if you'd pointed that out earlier in the thread!

Oh bless you. I had a 5.30 waker too - actually he was more 5am. And he didn't watch much telly either. We would head downstairs and he would have a snack (banana) and favourite toy for a while then around 6 I'd run him a bath with bath toys.
Does your ds enjoy baths? We had a lot in winter!!

Then story time and get dressed then downstairs for breakfast and toys. And repeat! You can have another bath with bubbles mid morning if you aren't going out! . Then off to find more toys. . .

I'd also be tempted to go for a drive with him and the baby after lunch if they will both snooze in the car.

Best of luck!

Sympathies OP. Nothing you can do. My 12yo has got up at 5.30am since he was a baby and he’s showing no signs of stopping! I’d just forget trying to fix it and instead concentrate on getting as many early nights as you can. It does get easier as they get older because they will at least sleep for longer spells in the night

Only waste your effort on the things you can control like trying to breastfeed or just formula feed. Waking yourself up at 2.30am to express sounds utterly utterly miserable. And if your DS is almost 3, let him lay next to you and watch an iPad or something if he’s up early. It’s such a short period of time all of this, just muddle through how best you can.

If your husband leaves just before 7, then he can surely do the 5.30-just before 7, then pass him to you as he's leaving.

Yes it's hard getting ready for work with a toddler round, but it's what we ask so when we go to work so perfectly manageable.

Given you are doing nights with the baby, I think it's fair that he does early mornings with the toddler

Also my eldest didn’t give a shit about the grow clock. She just looked at me with utter confusion like “why would I do something that a clock tells me to do?”

Just checking out of interest, if he wakes early and is emotional and what appears to be still tired, so you have any way to calm him, then repeat his bedtime 'routine' as in brush teeth read book, leave for sleep (or whatever yours is) and try to put him back to sleep?

I am guessing not just mine had this habit for a bit of a 3am wake in a completely irrational state and I found that a teeth brush and book helped him re think about sleep then it stopped after a few days.

Not pushing a suggestion just wondering as I couldn't see if you'd tried anything similar from comments!

Sorry I've not had a chance to read the whole thread but I'd really persist with totally cutting out all naps. I know you think it makes no difference, and it might have a few months back, but at 3 I would quite rigidly impose this, along with a really consistent bedtime of 7pm. It will take a while, maybe a few weeks, to take effect but I think it will get there. Your body does weird things if you know it has a chance to catch up on sleep later in the week.... give anything you try at least a week or 10 days to have any effect.

Makes it a very long day for you!! Can you take him in to bed with you and read a story and just cuddle
it’s hard if he’s difficult for you then disturbs the baby