To be profoundly saddened by this story

[Changeditforyou]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12565699/Police-rush-scene-incident-outside-busy-Croydon-shopping-centre.html

They tell us to help our daughters to protect themselves from male violence by thinking about what they wear, how much they drink, how late to stay out, where they go…
Are we supposed to add to the list ‘not rejecting a bunch of flowers in case you get stabbed to death’. This is horrifying.

I’m so so sick of male violence. It feels everywhere and inescapable. More luck than anything that your daughter isn’t the one. This poor girl and her family.

It was a woman headteacher at my DC school that excused it when a boy lifted up the girls skirts and pulled down their knickers.

It was a female relative that allowed her DS porno mags/videos when he was 13 years old.

It was the mother of a young boy that created hell if anyone dare to reprimand her DS in primary school for taking his hands to girls throats.
I could go on.

Yes, all of these were done by boys but all excused by women With excuses from "his mum will go made if I tell him off".

"They're only young"

"He doesn't mean to do it, its not his fault."

The minute you start justifying any type of unexeptable behaviour at any age whether done by or against female or male you are part of the problem.

In America there was a program once where young lads who committed crimes were taken to see dead bodies in the morgue. They weren't the bodies of their victims but they were the bodies of gang members who had been killed in gang altercations. If I recall correctly, it did have a small positive impact at the time.

It’s not ok to suggest that all men be locked up or kept under house arrest or be subjected to restrictions though. Because by doing that you are reversing the situation to one where women are in charge and men are the repressed sex. And that doesn’t work either.

We need to get to a point where we are all on the same page.

We need to look not at all men, but at individual situations in order to see where these attitudes come from. Because you don’t generally hear that men who murder their partners have come from decent families, with decent upbringings, there is almost always something in the past of any violent criminal which can trace back to their future behaviour.

A 17 year old doesn’t wake up one morning and think “oh I know, I’ll get out the machete and kill her if she won’t take me back.” There’s no way he won’t have shown violent tendencies before. And I would like to bet that he has grown up in a household where violence is normalised.

Oh but god forbid they do stop and search because is racist.

Also, what are the families of these kids doing to prevent this male violence? A bit of responsibility should fall into place here.

If it was a dog that killed her, we'd again have hell broken loose online, tighter restrictions, bans on the breed

If it was a dog that killed her we’d have killed the dog.

The sad thing is that women and girls are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. I know this is exactly what you are saying but it's men who need to take responsibility for this, its on them to to fix this, the girl did nothing wrong. But like you I would be saying the same things.

Saying 'its not all men' is as helpful as the people that said 'white lives matter too' during the BLM protests.

It's really not the point.

They certainly do.

If only the other men stop sitting about whining about NAMALT and tackling the problematic amongst them.

This is utterly heartbreaking. How many girls are now going to be too scared to leave abusive relationships? As if it isn't already hard to understand what's acceptable from a partner and what's not at that age.

I wish we'd tackle this at a society level though. Yes the poverty and cuts to youth services etc. But what about the common thread that joins this level of entitlement and violence in a teenager, with the cultural environment that enabled Russell Brand for years? It's all part of the same misogyny.

And on that note is there a reason BBC aren't covering the deep misogyny angle on this story?

I spoke to a 16 year old boy I knew a while back. He told me everyone (meaning boys) carries knives because they are always at threat from other kids with knives. Different schools, different areas, different gangs of kids and so on. So some are scared and are trying to protect themselves, others are actively using them to threaten. It goes from carrying to something else very nasty in a flash. The loss of young life is appalling but I don’t know what can be done to stop children carrying knives. It is ubiquitous from what I hear. The violence towards women has always been around of course.

That’s great, I have a son who is a delight as well. But very obviously we have a huge problem that is getting worse.

irisretic

Yep my teen's school are always issuing warnings about not letting our kids go to the shopping centre (has cinema, arcade, restaurants etc) on certain dates because of intel on planned fights. Meeting up with kids from other schools whilst in uniform is virtually banned.

Oh but god forbid they do stop and search because is racist. But if you’re only stopping and searching black people then it is racist. Stop and search needs to happen but it needs to be equal.

I have a friend who has twice been out in a group of white people and only he has been pulled over and been searched. That is out and out racist. It’s not only black people who carry knives.

It was truly heartbreaking, anger inducing and totally sickening just like todays murder.

Our office is opposite and it was truly a horrible day. My own son was robbed in Croydon in broad daylight last month. I only go there for work and otherwise wouldn’t step foot in the place again. My sincere condolences to her family. It gave me a chill driving past the forensic tent and flowers on the pavements

No very obviously I wasn’t saying murder is a typical response from men who get rejected. I was making the point that there are too many men, trying to control women, the options for women are play nicely, by the rules (flowers) or don’t (violence). I stand by that.

What I can honestly see is a lot of unhelpful raging at men, sweeping generalisations and absurd over-reactions. I doubt a news story about a 17 year old boy knifing a 15 year old boy would have provoked nearly as much consternation on here, yet males are far more likely to be the victims of such crimes than women. Also, as a feminist myself I don’t need you lecturing me about women’s rights and how hard fought they have been and continue to be either. Rather than lashing out unhelpfully at all men, let’s first and foremost show some respect to the victim by not turning her terrible murder into an excuse for more hatred and anger. Then let’s wait to find out the full facts of the case before leaping to conclusions. Mental illness may well be a factor in this case. We just don’t know enough yet.

I think it was 2015 there were 2 women a week murdered by a partner/ex partner. It's now something like 3.8 a week. So almost doubled.

And this is just murder. All male violence to women and girls is getting worse.

The police don't protect us. The family court doesn't protect our children. The media shows us we are objects for male gratification. We can't afford to leave abusive partners so many of our children grown up thinking this is normal- both the girls that they should just accept it and the boys that this is how you treat women.

Knife crime will continue as the police are not allowed to profile likely knife users and target stop and search. We have to accept that stabbings will continue until the police are allowed to profile and tackle the root causes.

The only thing thats changed is the internet. Perhaps it's caused by that, you know, easy availability of pornography and sub-sets of misogonistic men with their forums.

@SweetcornFritter there is no overreaction here, the ‘extreme’ posts are the result of frustration and under reacting to male violence in all its forms, for a myriad of reasons, and for too long. Also would you be saying that if it was your daughter. Again, this is about make violence, not mental health, not gang violence, and any other reason which can be conjured up in an attempt to justify it.

Male*

Straw man argument. Please feel free to start a thread about male on male violence, but we have a right to be enraged, and to shout about yet another example of men trying to control and own women, resulting death (it happens twice a week, it’s extremely common).

You seem to be saying that for women the choice is do as the man says or expect violence? That’s really not true for the majority of relationships. Of course some men are like this, but not the majority and tarring all men with the same brush is not helpful. I’m sure it wouldn’t be acceptable to make such generalisations based on ethnicity or socioeconomic groups.

Rage away then, for the good it will do.