To intensely dislike Keir Starmer

[LemonyTicket]

I can't stand Tories.
The current Tories are the worst

But I still intensely dislike Keir Starmer and will probably vote Green.

I find him phony, with no vision, like a terrible 6th form prefect. And to be honest his whole front bench are dreadful. Wes Streeting nauseates me.

Is it just me?

@Justifiedcheese , it has nothing to do with ‘hating or fearing’ trans women.
It has everything to do with despair at people who cannot/will not accept the fact of biological sex, and who would wish to erase the word ‘woman’ from the dictionary in order to appease a tiny but increasingly vocal and aggressive minority.

Taxes come from the population. More people paying taxes and buying and selling goods = more tax revenue.

Population explosion is a good thing.

It's not as simple as that.

For many years, the way we (and many other countries) have funded our aging population is by growing our population. But having more young people to pay for today's old people has the side effect that in 30/40/50/60 years, we'll have even more old people to pay for, which will in turn mean we'll need even more young people to pay for them, and so on, and so on. That is unsustainable - in fact relying on ever increasing number of people contributing to cover payouts for existing members is pretty much the definition of a Ponzi scheme!

Having said that, if the population growth is from immigration rather than births, it's less bad, as some of those immigrants will wish to return to their country of birth when they retire.

The only time it isn't, is if the Population are taking more out than they put in.

The average adult has a period of putting in more than they take out, followed by a period of taking out more than they put in.

So a population increase is generally a good thing in the short term, and not in the longer term.

I intentionally avoid discussing that subject on the internet (once bitten...), and I'm not about to change that now.

What I would say is that:

1. It's one subject among many, so however I felt about it could not outweigh the other issues which cause me to prefer Labour over Tory.
2. I don't believe for a second that the Tories' stance on it is because of a heartfelt desire to protect women's right.

I'm really not bothered about how much money he has, whether he's middle class or what school he went to. What I do care about is whether someone is fundamentally a decent person with the capability, experience and intelligence to run the country for the benefit of all not just themselves and their wealthy donors.

What we have witnessed from the Tory government over that last few years is just astonishing - Brexit years of complete chaos which has cost the country billions, Covid contracts with more billions just frittered away to their mates, Liz Truss disaster budget which made everyone poorer with investments and pension funds plummeting. Just look at the absolute state of the country, we don't need another personality in charge we need a bloody grown up serious person.

You are going to be bitterly disappointed if you think free dentistry will reappear or any public service for that matter with Labour

Indeed, and this always reminds me of the endless claims about how much better funded things were under Labour
Rose tinted glasses may be comforting, but I'm old enough to remember that in the last half century there's never - literally never - been a time when "public services" haven't whined that they're short of money

The whole point for me is that they're all as bad, gouging whatever they can and lavishing it on their own client groups, none of whom are going away any time soon. So on one side we have corrupt business and the old boys' club, and on the other we have the Corbynistas and Momentum waiting to crawl once more out of the woodwork

Which is why I'm politically homeless

we don't need another personality in charge we need a bloody grown up serious person

I agree completely, SilverGlitterBaubles, but the trouble is that people who intend to hang onto their integrity are no longer attracted to politics

And no wonder ...

@LemonyTicket debate Starmer’s policies all you like. But this personal aversion says more about you than about him, I think.

Even I, a foreigner, know that Margaret Thatcher’s father was a grocer. She was well before my time in the UK but as an informal student of your country’s history I am aware that she talked constantly of her ‘ordinary upbringing’. I also knew that KS had his first degree from Leeds, but PPs corrected you on that while I was still RTFT.

The more interesting point is that when KS was growing up, it was perfectly possible for a toolmaker and a nurse to buy a pleasant 3 bedroom detached house. Nothing unusual there. Why do you keep harping on this? It is a measure of how times have changed, under greedy, mostly Tory governments, that this scenario has become impossible.

So we have a man from an ordinary family with the talent to attend grammar school. The school went private while he was there and somehow he was able to stay. He was also a sufficiently talented musician to study at Guildhall, with a good enough ear to love Beethoven - a fact which @Clavinova has tried to weaponise. KS has a presumably excellent first degree from Leeds, because he was admitted to Oxford’s highly competitive PG programme in law. What in any of this is to be held against the man?

In contrast Liz Truss is from the affluent Round Hay area of Leeds. It is interesting that in spite of her sob story about poor schooling and the shadowy implications of poverty that often lie behind this, her DF is an Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Leeds University. One presumes there was a certain amount of intellectual stimulation in the home, never mind protests from teachers and pupils that her schools were actually good and sending pupils to Oxbridge was not unusual.

It is too bad LT missed out on the basics of compound interest at home and at school.

You clear know nothing that the cost of housing benefit, now included in UC, costs the tax payer, let alone the additional costs of homelessness.

You also don't seem to know how much a private dentist costs, for a new patient, up around £250, as they'll insist on x rays, hygienist and a the full check up.

With things like crowns and root canal costing '000s.

Scary you ve a vote.

Maybe they do but do you remember a time when there were almost 8m waiting for operations/treatment?
Where getting a GP appointment was measured in weeks?

Where dying in AE was a common occurrence?

When driving your car resulted in a wrecking a wheel or worse in a pot hole?

Even under Thatcher, i and my siblings could get free dental care, it got worse under Blair but still it was possible, now many places have no NHS dental treatment.

Corbyn is 74, i doubt he has many years left to jump back into power within the Labour party, he isn't even a Lab MP.

Keir Starmer reminds me of a teenage boy with anger issues.

He is too frightened of the luxury belief/identity politics crowd to say what a woman is and prefers to lie....so what else is he prepared to lie about ?

There is nothing socialist or class analysis based about him.

I won't vote for the LP over their shit treatment of Rosie Duffield and I used to be an LP member.

I will be spoiling my vote unless something changes.

Totally agree that things have got even worse, helford, but it isn't purely down to money; there's also the most appalling mismanagement, widespread entitlement and a mulish refusal for anyone to accept responsibility for anything to consider

And none of those things are party specific

Keir Starmer reminds me of a teenage boy with anger issues.

Interesting. That’s what Johnson reminded me of.

I think starting point would be making it clear it's sex not gender in the equality act, and then looking at third spaces where needed. Women's safety should not be the starting point to make others comfortable. The problem is the good will has been damaged by the whole "2+2=5" nonsense, and men already taking advantage of this by taking their jollies in encroaching on female boundaries without people being able to call them out. My concern is people who have dysphoria,or even just gender non conforming , are going to get hurt in any over correction. Because I think there WILL be a correction, but I agree the landing zone to give everyone what they need is narrow,and the trust and goodwill towards people who've spent years going with "be kind" and ignore your eyes and own boundaries is understandably,and rightfully, broken.

A friend of mine is a lawyer, and she said the same - a thoroughly decent man who does what he says he'll do. At that time she was representing rape victims.

It was Sean Lock who said we get the politicians we deserve. If people don't like Keir Starmer, and split the vote again simply because they don't like the look or the sound of him, then they deserve another Tory government.

It was. And one started by a Tory chancellor.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dear-chief-secretary-im-afraid-1918622

He says one thing, asked again on it flip flops around and gets annoyed

Infuriating to watch. I can see why op’s thread is more yanbu

Don't know where this "detached house" stuff came from? This is where he grew up. A) it's clearly not detached and B) I don't fancy it (especially with 4 kids as his family had) https://twitter.com/Adele_Thames/status/1246756402007244802

Also his father did not own the factory! This was skewed in a comment where he said "I visited my father's factory". He meant the factory where his father worked. The right wing press published this as fact to shore up their Tory overlords.

Also - he never paid school fees! He got a bursary as he was already at that school.

I CANNOT stand the snobbery on here!!! It's Ok to like classical music if you're a Tory but not Labour?! What's he supposed to listen to? Things Can only get Better on repeat?

In fact this whole thing that if you're Labour you have to have been born down a pit to an unemployed toilet cleaner is just so distracting from any reality. Well done him for making the most of his opportunities and trying to extend that to others rather than taking it away as our current government has.

Agree, it certainly isn't just money, appalling management as you say and where an apology is seemingly acceptable for a public sector xxxx up, even when it involves death, look at the maternity scandals? an apology is all that seems to happen, we keep getting them!!!

The Tories seem to be Penny wise Pound foolish, they cut funding/services but then have to spend far more putting it all right again but end up with a worse service.

I think Labour, if they win, will face an enormous task to turn things around.

I understand how tactical voting works thanks 🙂

What I don't think you are seeing is that I am not you and my priority is not to prevent the Tory's from getting back in at any cost. My priority is to vote as per my conscience and what I consider to be the best outcome for my dearest and dearest.

As we saw when Tim Farron was leader of the libdems for a very short period of time and then hounded out by media intrusion into his personal religious beliefs.

He's a crackling local MP up in Kendal, and I believe he'd have made a cracking leader of the libdems, but hey-ho, another decent bloke lost to a witch hunt.

Such a shame really.

(And no, I'm not a libdem, I just respect the guy for his principles and the immense effort he puts in for his constituency!).

I liked Sean Lock as a comedian but just because he said something about politics doesn't make it true. He probably said lots of other things too, but they didn't resonate as much with certain people.

We will get the government people vote for to win in our FPTP system. Nothing more, nothing less. As always after a general election some people will be happy, some will be sad.

There is no 'deserving' to be had and this term only seems to be used as a stick to beat people with.

I also liked Tim Farron very much and I note his downfall was partly because of his raising issues about single sex spaces in prisons and the trans wing of the Lib Dems wanting him out.

We will get the government people vote for to win in our FPTP system. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well yes, as usual we will get the government most people didn’t vote for, that’s how FPTP works and it is utterly shit and outdated.

I think Tim Farron's position became untenable because of his homophobia, rather tag his personal religious beliefs.