To have lost it at DS aged 11

[FluthyFeaffers]

I have yelled at him this evening.
He is 11, soon to be 12.
Started Yr 7 in secondary school 3 weeks ago.
He is struggling so much with his (lack of) organisation in the mornings before school, I am at my wits end.
I spent the whole of year 5 and 6 battling, absolutely battling with him to get ready for school, but never succeeded. We were late every single day for 2 years.
"Eat your breakfast" gets distracted eating breakfast.
"Clean your teeth" goes upstairs to clean teeth but wanders around doing something else.
"Get dressed" goes in to bedroom to get dressed but ends up doing something else.
Etc. Etc. All through year 5 & 6.
It made us late because whilst this was going on I'm racing around trying to get myself ready for work and trying to get my other younger DC ready. Then I'd go and check on DS and he'd never ever have done what I'd sent him to do.
Nothing worked to motivate him. No reward system, no sticker chart, no amount of explaining about the repercussions of not doing as asked, no amount of explaining about the knock on effect of being late for school. I tried it all for 2 years. Nothing worked.
But because it was primary school, all that happened to him was we missed the school gate and had to go roundcto the front reception to be let in. He got a warm friendly greeting from teachers and I got a look of "Why can't you get your poor child in to school on time" and then I'd arrive late for work and get reprimanded for it.
So I spent the whole summer drilling it in to him that in Yr 7 he must must must get to school on time, because in secondary school if you're late you get a detention, because you're causing your sibling masses of stress by making them late for school every time you're late for school, because I am getting in to serious trouble at work because of arriving late every day because I drop you in late because you're not ready to leave on time, because it creates SO MUCH STRESS when you won't get ready in time to leave on time for school.
Yes yes yes yes yes mum, he said every time I brought it up over summer.
I promise, promise, promise I will change, he said.
4 weeks in to secondary school, and it is a nightmare every single morning.
He cannot, cannot get himself ready for school in time to leave.
I spell out for him every single morning what he needs to do. It's soooooo eeeeeasy. It's the same god damn things every single day! Nothing changes! Do x, y, z.
"Yes mum" wanders around.
"Have you done x, y and z?"
"No, sorry, I forgot. I'll do it now"
Wanders off.
"Why haven't you done x? Ive asked you twice now"
"Sorry"
"Do it now"
"Why haven't you done y? I've asked you 3 times"
"I'm sorry. I'll do it. I'm trying my best"
Last week he needed to take his PE bag on 1 of the says.
"Remember to take your PE bag today, it's hanging in the cupboard " I said.
"Oh yeah!!!!! PE!!!!! I forgot!!!!!! Thanks for reminding me!!!!!"
20 mins later:
"Have you got your PE bag?"
"Oh No! I forgot! I'll get it now...."
15 mins later, after non stop constant continuous marshalling to get ready, do this, do that, do this, do that:
"Right, come on, we're late again, pick up your rucksack and your PE bag we need to leave NOW"
DS hovers around putting on tie and blazer which I'd asked him to do the the past hour sling with all his other things he needs to do.
"NOW" I raise my voice, as he's making my other child late for school and me late for work.
He runs out the door, jumps in the car.
We get to school.
He turns pale and says "I've forgotten my PE bag"
"Tough" I say. " I have told you 3 times this morning to take your PE bag. I reminded you for the 3rd time right before we left home."
DS starts crying
"I will get a detention!!!!!!!!!"
His worst, absolute worst fear, is getting a detention. He's never had one, and is terrified of getting one.
"Maybe you'll learn if you get a detention " I say.
Then he starts begging and pleading with me to take him home to get his PE bag. He's crying sorry over and over again. He looks physically ill, sweating, clammy, pale.
So I drive him home to get PE bag.
My other child starts crying because now she is horribly late for school (different school) and is too young to go in by herself plus she has SEN and isn't mature enough to cope with going in by herself.
I drop him back to school. He's late. I drop DD toschool. She's late. I get 'the look' from her teachers. I drive to work. I'm late. I get disciplined by my boss.
That evening, I talk to DS for a very, very long time about the impact of his disorganisation in the mornings.
We work out that it would help him if I wrote down for him everything he needs to do in the mornings.
So I write it all out in very clear, bullet point steps. I show it to him, he thinks it's really helpful.
Great, I think.
Why didnt I think of this before.
1 week on, it's of no help at all.
This morning, he's wandering around telling me he's ready whilst simultaneously having forgotten 7 instructions in his morning list. I pointed each of the 7 things on the list out to him, staring each thing that was on the list that he hadn't done.
I told him to do them.
Went off to get other child ready to leave, I'm ready to leave, DS still not ready to leave. We were all late again.
Yesterday, he had something really important to take to school. His timetable. I askedchim SIX TIMES to put his timetable in to his rucksack (he'd got it out at home and I'd seen it in theclounge). I told him the night before, and again in the morning, 6 separate times in total "Put your timetable in to your rucksack now, otherwise you will forget" . 6 times. The 6th time was just before we left. I mean, I was getting more and more stern each time. "Put. Your. Timetable. In. To. Your. Rucksack. NOW. NOW!" We got to school. He turned pale. Panicked. "Mum I've forgotten my timetable!!!!!!!".
I point blank refused to go back and sent him in to school without it. He was really upset. Told me after school today that he'd gone to the wrong classroom at one point in the day as couldn't remember without his timetable. So I said "Go and put it in your rucksack now then, do it now".
"Ok" he says.
Dinnertime:
"Did you put your timetable in your rucksack?"
"Oh No! I got distracted! I'll do it now!"
Evening time
"Is your timetable in your rucksack?"
"No.......I forgot......."
"Go and do it immediately "
"OK...."
Bedtime, he's in bed, reading:
"Darling, is your timetable in your rucksack, did you do it?"
"No, sorry, I'm sorry mum, I forgot"
And that was that.
I lost it.
Yelled at him. For ages.
I have NEVER yelled at him before. Never.
He was devastated. So remorseful. Said sorry over and over again.
And finally, he broke my heart by sadly and quietly saying "I'm so sorry for being me. I really struggle with my short term memory mummy. I know it causes problems butvi cant help it".
He's soon to be 12.
He has not got SEN.
He's bright.
He's average at school except for maths where he's below average.
He's amazing in every other way.
He's such a good boy.
He tries so hard all of the time to do his best.
He's a clever boy.
He's a wonderful personality.
Fantastic sense of humour.
Loving.
Kind.
Affectionate.
Funny.
Friends love him.
Teachers complimentary about him.
What the hell is wrong with him in tbe mornings?????????
Am I being too hard?
Am I expecting too much????

Oh bless him when he is picking up on it himself 😩😩

Google the Wender Utah scale for ADHD. It should give you a scale to work what the answers mean.

It definitely sounds like there are ADHD traits, and I would aim to investigate the possibility while he is still young.

OP I know I’m quoting from
pages ago but I just wanted to say I think you’re doing brilliant by him. I’m an adult with ADHD, diagnosed in my teens, and have never had anything like the communication or effort you’re giving him, from my own parents and it’s SO important. Well done for putting yourself out there and learning for him, he’s very lucky to have you in his corner.

Hi, it does sound very much like ADHD, me daughter has it, I'm also trained in supporting students with ADHD and autism and hyper focus is actually an ADHD symptom, so is time blindness where you just don't realise how long you've spent doing something, it sounds pretty much classic ADHD.

Firstly he'll have stopped listening to you a long time ago because you've gone on about it so much.
Secondly, don't be the lawnmower parent and fix the issues, allow him to accept the consequences of his actions. It will be uncomfortable but it's part of growing up.

Hyper focus is absolutely a part of ADHD. My daughter is the most scatty, disorganised person I know. Has an attention span of less than five mins in school (she has an EHCP and was diagnosed at five) yet she can do her hyper focus (a specific craft) for hours at a time. I find it both fascinating and frustrating in equal measure!

I suggest that you stop giving instructions, just create a grid with the list of tasks down the left and days of week on top. From now on it is his responsibility to do the tasks and tick them off. If he doesn't they don't get done. Explain that it is not your responsibility to organise him. He will probably make mistakes to begin with but in time should improve. There is absolutely no point you giving him instructions repeatedly since he is clearly totally ignoring them most of the time. You are just wasting energy. By returning home for the PE kit you have shown him that you will always pick up the pieces if he 'forgets' something, and as long as you do he will remain dependent on you to be responsible for him.

I went private route and literally googled educational psychologists in the area with their reviews and qualifications. Be careful - some of them can’t prescribe medication so before making appointment check if they are qualified to do so otherwise you will end up paying twice. I mentioned to school that I am planning to get him an appointment- by A levels he literally couldn’t get to any lesson without being at least 20 min late and never handed his homework (he did it, he just forgot to bring it to hand in). School was receptive to the idea though not enthusiastic (he still managed to get high grades in exams so they didn’t see big problem). I ran by them the names I chose and they recognised some. I made an appointment. We had a long meeting with this doctor and then he sent questionnaires to me, my DS and school. School’s responding to this questionnaire is extremely important so if your DS doesn’t have any problems at school he won’t be diagnosed properly. In our case school of course did say about his forgetfulness, being late for lessons, asking questions without raising hand, switching off during lessons and never handing his homework on time. After that we had another 30 min consultation at which he was prescribed medication, recommended techniques and after he sent letters both to our GP to ensure we get medication through NHS and to school to ensure appropriate measures are set for him during exams (quiet room, extra time, time for breaks). That letter was copied to me too. We subsequently provided this letter in his university too and he always got these measures implemented. Uni was much better than school. School just put him during exams into the same room as other children with dyslexia or any other extra time requirements. That didn’t help him much as he can’t deal with any distraction. Uni was much more organised - he was usually in a separate room on his own with teacher.
He graduated school with all A A* grades and both bachelor and masters with 2:1. In university he only took medication during exam preparation time and exams themselves. So all in all nothing to be afraid of 😊
if you want to go non-private mode recommendation from school and referral from GP is needed but it takes 2-3 years to get an appointment. We did take referral from GP but when learnt about waiting time just went private. It is expensive but you only pay for two appointments - the first one the most expensive the second was a fracture of it. I don’t remember how much it was to be honest - it happened 6-7 years ago.

Both of mine struggle with executive function, both dyslexic, one with ASD (tbh it wouldn't stun me if he has got inattentive ADHD)

Our morning routine goes from the bedroom through the house to the front door to avoid distracting backtracking such as going upstairs for a pair of socks resulting in 5 mins later realising a child is AWOL and still sockless lying on his bed lost in his own world playing with his hands (this is the supposedly NT one...)
The morning's instructions are single word; food, pants, trousers, socks, shirt, HAIR, TEETH, SHOES, PE kit. There isn't spare mental capacity in the system to deal with nice, polite sentences (we are nice the rest of the time!)

We have "Exit Mode" this is the trigger point for action. We count down until exit mode, then exit mode is the last layer of things like coats, shoes, bags to leave. Kind of indoor ready in advance and outdoor ready at the last minute.

One tip is don't give round numbers. 4 minutes gets attention more than well used numbers like 5 minutes.

I survived secondary school by carrying everything every day. DS1 does the same. I've tried to introduce lighter systems, but he is determined to do it that way and it is slightly ironic that his natural coping strategy is the same as mine.

Also mix up the routine, bag packed by the front door the night before. No breakfast until you're dressed. Brush your teeth downstairs straight after breakfast.

You are describing my son perfectly and we're waiting for his neuro referral for attention deficit disorder to be investigated (it's been a year since it was submitted, not a quick process! 🙄)
I would encourage you to look into it, we have put things in place at home to help mine and honestly it's a game changer. Also he really struggled with maths all through primary and he's flying through it all now, we think it's the change of scene and the alternating teachers and classrooms through the different subjects is helping him to focus.
But can totally understand the losing it, I've done it myself and felt awful about it afterwards, although it's really frustrating, he can't help it

I haven't RTFT just a few pages and OP posts. I'm glad you are finding the right information OP and I hope things will get better from now on. The thing is, ADHD or not he still has to learn to do these things, even with adjusting expectations of age. I think a little bit of natural consequences is needed, he needs do detention for forgetting something and that might be the one thing he remembers. He obviously struggles but is becoming dependent on you which isn't going to work. We have everything labelled in my house, loads of storage in DS room and everything separated, he plays 2 sports and kits are in separate drawers with the name stuck on the front. When he was younger we used visual aids for everything, so a picture of what was in each drawer stuck outside. We made what we called 'ready to go' cards where I would hand a laminated sheet to him with 3 things or more on it. Pictures not words of a coat, bag etc. If you need more than 3 things I'd recommend having 2 sets of cards as the whole point is simplicity and clarify. As he got older, for secondary school each subject was colour coded, each compartment of the school bag had a list of what went there so no frantic rummaging and he could check himself. These little tools all helped so much. A lot of resources for ASD will really help your DS even if he doesn't have it. While waiting for assessment pls consider private OT it was a life changer for us. They will give you a tailor made set of tools to help and also exercises or games to enhance his executive function, or whatever his weak point is.

Best of luck OP you sound like a wonderful patient woman!!

I’m a successful 42 year old phd-educated married man. I just joined mumsnet to reply to you. (I fell down a rabbit hole when my wife shared something on AIBU)

I this could have been me. I was like this as a kid. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 38. Medication helped.

I wanted to tell you how I function. I have lots of life hacks.

I have two times. Now and not now.

I don’t keep certain information ‘on file’.

I don’t remember anything hidden in a cupboard. If it is hidden in a cupboard it doesn’t exist.

I can’t plan how long something would take.

I don’t form routines.

So I use various life hacks.

I use objects as memory cues.
i act on things immediately
I use tech to help,
I make visual plans.

If my wife told me that my gym bag was hanging in the wardrobe and I needed it tomorrow, I can guarantee I won’t keep that info on file until I need it.

So I would either put it in the car now. Or put it somewhere in my ‘attention field’. Somewhere I will see if tomorrow as I am leaving the house. Like the door, the kitchen table etc.

I also would set a reminder on my smart phone to remind me to take my gym kit as I was leaving.

other hacks I have .
outlook sends me reminders 15 min before appointments.

google maps has a travel time function.

When it comes to ‘to do’ lists. If something needs to be done it must be written down.

We have a white board of jobs in the kitchen.

If I am planning what to take I will talk through the actions and imagine

we put all plans on Google calendar and send each other invites

I can’t put my lunch in the fridge overnight. I’ll forget about it. So if I put it in the car it doesn’t overheat.

things that may help your son which you may know about.

1.get him to get everything ready in his school bag the night before

He’ll need a planner he can see in his bedroom with what he needs to take to school on what day. This needs to be big and on the wall. I can imagine one with colourful pictures.

So if Monday needs a geography book, French, maths and PE he could have pics like 🌎,8️⃣6️⃣➕,⚽️.

Making this chart is an exciting ‘start of term’ ritual.

Also get his uniform ready, and ideally shower the nights before.

He may need a evening checklist:

School bag packed with books ✅
uniform ready ✅
homework done ✅
do I need any extras for school ? PE kit? Ingredients for food tech? ✅
Do I have any after school activity? ✅

Start of by getting everything ready together the night before. Then use an alarm to remind him.

He could try putting everything by his shoes. He isn’t going to go out without shoes.

2.work out his times for the morning

I have to consciously work out how long it takes to get up, make coffee, take the dog out, and to commute.

Work out how long it takes to get up, wash breakfast and get ready.

He needs to have an alarm clock that goes off more than once. Once for getting up, once for washing, etc.

if allowed use technology. Then use it

A regular alarm to tell him what to do at what stage will make a massive difference.

I have

0545 wake up (repeated at 5 min Intervals)
0600 get up
0605 breakfast and coffee
0630 shower, clean teeth and shave (all my wash stuff is visible right where can see it. So once I shower I won’t forget to wash my teeth afterwards.)
0645 get dressed.
0700 🐾walkies!!!
0715 turn round (so I don’t walk the dog too far and forget to come back).
0730 leave the house

There are Apps

Any new commitment must go on Google calendar, with a reminder to take anything special that morning,

He may need a visual reminder in his bedroom charting what to do in the morning.

hope this helps.

@mikulkin Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it all, I really appreciate it ❤️

Loving all the hints and tips- especially the shoes one. DS has epipens. Every night I slip them into his school shoes. He can't put his shoes on without taking his epipens out and then putting them into his blazer pocket.

I did not even 'realise' I did this. It's clearly a hack we now do automatically.

You've effectively described my husband. I can't overstate that. But I do promise it gets better. Once he got his diagnosis, support and medication things improved (he was diagnosed in early adulthood after years of hard battle). Routine also helps. But we also lean into each others strengths. He has a PhD, an understanding company to work for and we're happy. You sound like you really care and want the world for your son. It will be okay. Thinking of you and your family.

The best hack is to get the sort of job where you have a secretary or a PA.

But you need to learn how to do all this to get that sort of job.

By teaching independence you are going to teach him far more than if you do it all for him.

@FluthyFeaffers I also had absolutely no idea that hyper focus was actually a symptom of ADHD. I spent all of ds' primary years thinking he couldn't possibly have it, even though he couldn't listen to a story or take in instructions, because he could sit and build a 2k piece lego set at six, all on his own and concentrating on the instructions for 8 hours straight!

I hope you get him some help. My ds was diagnosed at 13. Unfortunately for me, he also doesn't care about negative repurcussions -he's so used to detentions and demerits they're like a water off a duck's back! But one thing that helped him become more organised was going to the gym, planning his workouts, having to bring the right equipment etc. He's not so great at organising himself for things he's not interested in (school!) but some skills have transferred across!

Hi OP, my DD is exactly like your son. She is older but we have used flash cards at school for her memory and at home we have a grid chart with timings/pictures with what she needs to do in the mornings. She has this in her bedroom and clear instructions. It took a while for her to get use it but one day it just clicked. You sound like a lovely caring mum.

This.

Hi I worked as an SEN and it sounds as if your son may have ADHD or Dyslexia children with both conditions have can have memory issues. Another example of dyslexia is not being to remember left and right my own DS being an example of this he knows by keeping his watch on his left arm which is correct. Children with these condition can be very clever and misunderstood. Please talk to your DS school they will have a SEN. Explain how long this has been going on and how frustrated you both must feel.

YANBU. Almost certainly ADHD/ Executive functioning deficit but you all still need to get out of the door.
He may struggle with verbal instructions as well. The trouble is that the more shame and anxiety he has around this stuff the less chance he has of being able to do it. Being shouted at / constantly reminded can actually get in the way of being able to cope as it adds to the mental noise -if his head is full of your instructions and his worry about a detention there is no bandwidth left to actually remember his pe kit, pick it up and carry it out of the door.

Reinforce that a lot of very clever and wonderful people have difficulties with simple everyday organising tasks because their brains are busy. He is not alone in this, it's typical of artists and scientists- the absent minded professor type.

Work out strategies with him not for him - he desperately wants to get to school on time with everything he needs, homework done and ready to hand in, he just can't make his brain do it. None of this is deliberate. So remind him to put things in the car the night before, have a checklist by the door, duplicate copies of his timetable, alarms, clocks in every room, a spare ruler and pen on his desk and one in his bag, spare trainers in the boot of the car. No TV or tech until he is dressed and eating his breakfast. Make a plan together

I still struggle with this at 56, by the way. The more you build and celebrate his ability to feel calm, confident and in control, and that he has a plan b if things go wrong, the better he will get at it. Share your concerns with his form tutor. But make it clear that leaving on time for you and his sister is non-negotiable, if he's putting his clothes on in the car or leaving barefoot in his pjs at that time then so be it and he takes the consequence.

Sounds a lot like my child. Diagnosed dyslexia, strongly suspect adhd.

Literally cannot complete a task unless you are hovering over them, cajoling into doing it. Otherwise, 10 seconds later it's gone.

Ridiculous. Have you read the OPs posts? So she didn't pick up on it, prob thought her son was a exasperating teenager. So she lost her tag - haven't we all, part of being human.
If you read her posts she is positively one of the loveliest mums and now has lots of great advice to take forward.