To think it is actually mostly men?

[Nolpp]

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

I had a car incident with a man. We both got out out of our cars and we were arguing. I started to get upset. A car pulled up and another man got out. He said are you OK to me and the other man got in his car and drove off.

I was shaking and my phone was dead so he lent me his to ring my Husband. He then stayed with me till he knew my Husband was with me.

Are you joking?
Women get berated by men about their driving - "women drivers!" all the time.
The scenario you paint would never happen. Reverse the genders and it happens every day.

@Datanerd

Actually, I disagree with your statement that gang on gang violence "isn't a man issue it's a society issue as it's location specific". Since almost all perpetrators of gang violence, gang murder and those carrying dangerous weapons are men, this would suggest it is very much a "man problem".

But the situation I'm describing does happen. Even the majority of young women don't want to associate with feminism because of perceived toxicity and 'man hating'. It's just not the way to get innoceng men onboard.

Sadly, I often don't think that's even the objective. There are a lot of toxic women that just like playing the victim and moaning.

And women drivers are often pretty terrible tbh. Let's not lie. 😂

@Natalya123

I sincerely hope for your sake you are a man.

I know the old trope that more men are victims of violent assault than women and statistically that is true. But this skews the facts. Men are more likely to indulge in, be involved in or to incite violent activity in the first place. This could be gang related, fights at football matches, threatening behaviour at the pub and so on. By default then they are more likely to be injured or killed through violence acts. They are rarely the victims of murder or rape by simply going about their normal everyday lives such as taking a taxi, walking home from work or getting into a fucking police car.

Yes, because how do you know which man is part of the significant majority and who isn’t. On paper my exh was an ally but in reality was a very violent man. Armed with this knowledge I avoid intimacy with men. Also ahen I witness my friends relationships even the good men seem to have an aversion to 50-50 housework responsibility. So, that is a “no thanks” from me.

I know the old trope that more men are victims of violent assault than women and statistically that is true. But this skews the facts. Men are more likely to indulge in, be involved in or to incite violent activity in the first place. This could be gang related, fights at football matches, threatening behaviour at the pub and so on. By default then they are more likely to be injured or killed through violence acts. They are rarely the victims of murder or rape by simply going about their normal everyday lives such as taking a taxi, walking home from work or getting into a fucking police car.

I agree with every word of this, but I’d add something else to the last paragraph which is that men are rarely if ever murdered or assaulted solely because they are male.

Sarah Everard, Sabina Nessa (just for example, there are so many thousands more) - why were they killed? Because they were female. No other reason. Their killers wanted to kill a woman - not a person of either sex, a woman - for gratification and selected one at random. But the only criteria for selection was being female.

If any other social group preyed on another social group the way men prey on women, we would call it terrorism and we would take steps to counter it. But we just accept it as one of those things. And then we say that the victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Err why would a woman berate a random man for another man's driving?

Why are you making up a scenario in which a woman behaves with unnecessary aggression towards an innocent bystander? That would be bizarre behaviour.

Pointing out that men are responsible for the majority of violence in our society does not render women incapable of behaving like reasonable adults FFS.

When a man literally drove into the side of my car he got out and started screaming abuse at me, I thought he was going to hit me or cause more damage to my car he was in such a rage about the accident his shit driving had caused. Thank god a passing police car stopped when they saw him stomping around, waving his arms about and screaming at me.

It's just not the way to get innoceng men onboard.

Seriously? Decent men won't object to male violence against women unless women are nice to them? They're not decent men are they?

I don't need anyone to be nice to me to think they should not be the victim of violence.

Natalya123

Presumably some random woman wasn't very nice to this charming man? Poor baby look how vulnerable he is.

uk.news.yahoo.com/road-rage-video-driver-windscreen-140605520.html

Playing the victim and moaning….mmmm

is it moaning to tell you about how my exh - a man who gave every indication of being lovely - busted my lip so that I couldn’t attend a work social event? Is it playing the victim to tell you about the time I told him I didn’t want to have sex but he forcibly held me down and did it anyway? Or the time he put his hands around my throat and squeezed until I almost passed out?

Was seven year old me playing the victim when a paedophile did what he wanted then threatened to kill me if I told anyone?

My exh and the paedo are not all men but they are men. For many years I thought it must be my fault until I worked with a male counsellor who told me that there were a lot of predators around and that’s why it had happened to me more than once and not because it was something that I was doing. Then he tried to comfor t me and tried to kiss me - but that’s another story and rather proved his point.

It's interesting how you claim statistics about violence against men as 'old trope', talk about minimising violence against men.
Your point is utterly untrue, check the ONS stats, a man is far more likely to be the victim of violence from a stranger or aquaintence than a woman, which means a man is more likely to be attacked 'going about his business' than a woman. And to be honest this is common sense, very few men would be seen dead in public attacking a woman but another man is fair game, and most men don't go to bars or football matches for a fight, they just want to enjoy a night out, but they are more at risk of being started on.
Yes men are the perpetrators of more crime, noone is denying that, but they are also more likely to be the victims, so crime is just as much a problem for men as it is for women.

That isn't the issue though.

It is not that we need to be nice to decent men to get them to do something. It is that there is plenty of rhetoric blaming all men and saying that all men are the problem. NAMALT is a reactionary phrase to a narrative that seeks to blame all men for the behaviour of a subsection of violent misogynistic men. I'm not saying that I don't sympathise with women who are suspicious of all men but it is not the way to win hearts and minds. Someone who feels they are part of the problem will not be engaged to become part of the solution.

So, what do we need these decent men to do to tackle male violence? What positive steps can they take? I think that a key one is challenging low level behaviour for a start. Seeking out and being positive role models is another. I'm sure we can think of many more.

The problem is that the dangerous and violent men do not make themselves known to us in advance of their violence but you think women being cautious around all men isn't the way to win hearts and minds?

What do you propose women do, give every man the benefit of the doubt and accept those who end up dead or injured as collateral damage because dead women are not nearly as bad as men's hurt feelings?

No one has ever said it's all men, we simply can't tell by looking which men are dangerous and until someone gives us a fail safe way of making the distinction between decent men and violent men women will continue treating all men cautiously.

If I talk about violent men I'm not talking about non violent men so if the mere inclusion of the word men is enough to make men feel under attack then women will never be able to win, will they?

^This with bells on. And IME decent men don’t take offence at a discussion about male violence, as they know that it isn’t about them. They don’t need to have it pointed out that NAMALT.

Absolutely this!!

I was listening to a radio talk show a few weeks ago and a man came on and said that if any of his sons said to him NAMALT he would consider that they were part of the problem and that he would have to have a talk with them. It really was great to hear a father say that.

@Ramalangadingdong , I'm so sorry those awful things happened to you. I hope you have been able to find a way of laying those demons to rest.

Well he'll end up being described as a simp because he's revealed that men actually do "get it". They "get it" because it's really not that complicated.

The bag of maltesers analogy is really simple to understand. If someone offered you a bag of maltesers and told you half a dozen in the bag contained shit/poison, how many would you eat?

Most decent men ime are massively suspicious and cynical about other men. How often have friends fluttered saying some man is “really nice” and Dh will say afterwards that he’s really not.

@Natalya123

I think you're the hard of thinking one. You sound like a teenager spouting nonsense to her (or his) parents. Maybe you are exactly that. But crack on, I suppose it's a form of entertainment.

@Datanerd

The news doesn't seem to reflect this though does it. I can't remember when I last read about a man being found dead because he was the victim of a totally random attack from a complete stranger. I don't recall reading about the police sending vile online messages about men or taking and sharing photos of murdered men. I haven't heard too many mainstream comedians making jokes about male rape either.

Crime reduction relies on three things: prevention, protection, prosecution:
Prevention - Identify the common features of the crime and reduce those so the crime is less attractive. In this case, a common feature is male violence. Would to make violence from men unacceptable; identify and tackle the root causes.
We could also use other deterrents like CCTV and police patrols in high crime areas - pretty sure the police will already be doing this.
Protection - advising men how to protect themselves from violence when out, or to consider not going into risky situations. We already expect women to take precautions; we could encourage men to take the same;
Prosecution - put in place a strategy to identify and prosecute offenders, particularly repeat offenders. This would require society to acknowledge the repeat offenders rather than excuse them and persistently identify and disrupt the most violent men.

If you genuinely believe male violence is a problem for men as well, how do you propose we address it?