To think it is actually mostly men?

[Nolpp]

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

@Natalya123 there are dozens and dozens of women on this thread alone that share my experience. All of my friends, all of my colleagues, all of the women in my family. And yes, men do shout insults at women. All The Time. When those of us in our 50s and 60s and above grew up, this was an everyday thing. Its intimidating and I dont think should be belittled as a micro aggression. Its just plain aggression.

Every single one of my friends has been raped or sexually assaulted. All of us. Why would I lie about this?

@PaulaZackMayo just when I thought your naivety couldn't get any worse. I've reported your post.

@PaulaZackMayo and in terms of bitchiness in the work place, I am very senior and spend a lot of time and effort building positive work cultures and guiding young people to be supportive and to recognise how to support each other. I also mentor women one-on-one. Negative behaviour from colleagues can always be understood with enough effort and strategies put in place to improve it. I would never use the word bitchy. its massively unhelpful.

I have many women friends from different circles and it's just not the case with them. I can't say you are lying but I just find it odd that every single one of you have experienced this.

I also don't understand that you don't know any men that you consider kind and not dangerous.

Every time a woman says something like this though they get get called naive. I'm certainly not naive & I've experienced a lot in my life.

Why would I care? It's not going to ruin my day.

I didn't say I don't know any men who are kind and not dangerous. I said that I dont have men in my personal life anyone as a matter of choice. I recognise that some men are good men, I just don't date, live or socialise with them anymore.

Why am I so naive?

I have great sympathy for women who have been treated bad by a man. Saying that everyone they know has been through this does sound unbelievable.

I have a lots of friends who I'm very close to and this is just not the case.

I don't know if it's where I live. I don't live in a city. Me and my friends probably did put ourselves in more dangerous situations when we were younger (clubbing in cities etc). Now we don't. Most of us are in serious relationships and live out of the city.

So can you explain why I'm so naive by saying that the people (both men & women) are not seeing this all of the time.

I have a lot of men friends and colleagues. So to call me naive is a bit odd as I spend a lot of time with men. I'm a strong independent woman and would not take any shit off of any of them including my boss.

If I was a friend of yours I would never in a million years disclose to you sexual abuse or assault I had experienced.

Wasn’t it identified a few years ago that the majority of young women/girls aged 12-25 had been harassed or assaulted?

It’s been found that most girls in secondary school are regularly harassed or assaulted, to the point where it’s now normal school life and they don’t bother reporting because no one does anything about it.

When in school (she left about 5 years ago now) my dd (and other girls) was regularly grabbed (bottom, breasts), had her bottom slapped, one boy would pretend to choke girls and pul their hair (wonder where he got that idea…), this was all daily life in school, and it felt normal. Teachers didn’t do anything. I complained several times but was told boys will be boys, that it’s typical for boys to treat girls badly because they can’t express their feelings as well as girls can - so many fucking excuses. In many schools across the country this is normal.

Most women I know, ranging from young adult to elderly, have faced harassment at some point from men, many of them have been assaulted to varying degrees of severity.

This is not a minority of men carrying out harassment/assaults to the majority of women, it just can’t be. Far more likely that the issue is swept under the carpet and ignored, like it is in schools.

I’ve worked with men considered good and decent, but they only keep up that facade when they need to. When they’re comfortable in male company (and like I said earlier I was considered one of the lads) it slips and the rape jokes and sexualised banter comes out. I’ve met men who don’t join in, but not one called them out for it, and they still laughed.

So many men behave abhorrently, but it’s so accepted that even some women can’t recognise it.
Just before things broke about Russell Brand and we didn’t know who the dispatches program was about there were so many names being bandied about - news of any of them potentially being a predator/rapist was not a shock. Once the news broke how many defended him and still are?
Men have been so facilitated to get away with poor behaviour (not only predatory sexual behaviour, but also in the home where a massively low bar is typically set for men (waits for posters to tell me their H does everything 🙄)) that many women cannot see it. It’s very possible that one day your eyes will be opened to it.
Women who dismiss this problem because their man is good are missing the point, and making it easier for men to get away with inhumane behaviour, or to continue ignoring it.
I swear women can be women’s worst enemies by denying and minimising how common it is for men to behave badly.

Edited to add: porn is so normalised and accepted - men (and some women (for the inevitable cool wives) Jack off to violent sex portrayed by young women who may well be trafficked, so are being raped, with lower life expectancies, high rates of sexual injuries. I mean, what’s not to be turned on with that?

Sadly, it also doesn't stop you coming back onto this thread to demonstrate the Dunning-Kreuger effect in action.

What makes women pliable and willing to give men the benefit of the doubt is oestrogen. It's amazing how the scales fall from the eyes of women as they grow older.

“Would not take any shit off them” hahaha! Seriously, I suppose Sarah Everard would have been okay if she hadn’t taken any shit off Wayne Couzens? Or the poor child who was murdered in Croydon for defending her friend. She would still be alive if she hadn’t taken any shit from a murderous schoolboy? In fact she was murdered precisely because she wasn’t standing for his shit.

With due respect could you please honour the promise you made upthread and leave so that the grownups can talk?

@Natalya123 can you clarify what you said about micro aggression please? Are you saying that if I, jokingly, use abusive language like your example and a woman decides it's unacceptable that she's being unreasonable, that she should lighten up because it's just a joke?

You don't know me and my friends. We share everything.

How can you possibly know what people choose not to disclose?

You are twisting what I said.

I didn't mean that. I meant that I'm not naive. I don't look at men through rose tinted glasses. I've had an abusive relationship.

Please don't be one of those posters that twist things to make their point correct.

I think the person who called you naive was using the word as a euphemism.

I’ve worked with men considered good and decent, but they only keep up that facade when they need to. When they’re comfortable in male company (and like I said earlier I was considered one of the lads) it slips and the rape jokes and sexualised banter comes out. I’ve met men who don’t join in, but not one called them out for it, and they still laughed.

So much of your post resonated with me but this in particular stood out. I've had two people, one was a transwoman and the other a man, tell me exactly this, both working in what we might describe today as "woke" sectors, one worked for an organisation renowned for its "progressive" values. Both told me of a culture where the men behave themselves in front of women but when women were absent the male "banter" was horrifically sexist. And neither of them challenged it.

Plenty of men maintain a veneer of civility but they are still wanking off to porn which depicts the abuse and degradation of women. If footage of violent sex gets you off then you do not respect women and you are not a decent man.

There are plenty of women who claim opposition to pornography and prostitution is anti sex worker, apparently being painfully made "air tight" is empowering, funny how Ivy League and Russell group graduates are under represented as performers in this industry. It's almost as if they cannot compute that it the men abusing and exploiting women that I judge but society treats the satisfaction of men's desires at the expense of women as entirely normal. It is rape culture.

One of the most unpleasant people I have met in a work environment was a woman, she made a habit of trying to sabotage the promotion prospects of anyone she perceived as competition, however, she never grabbed me by the throat, pinned me against a wall and threatened to rape me.

I know men who appear decent, I like them and I'm friends with them but I do not actively seek out men to socialise with. I'm not rude or unpleasant to men I just don't find them very interesting.

Calling me stupid which a couple of posters have done is not making them look very bright or nice themselves. Not doing women justice in general. Showing that if someone doesn't agree with them they start calling them names.

You don't know what my relationships are like with my friends. We talk about sex and relationships. Some of our past relationships with men have not all been good. The men we've had bad experiences with are not in the same league as the ones we are with now.

Calling me stupid which a couple of posters have done is not making them look very bright or nice themselves. Not doing women justice in general.

Oh the irony.

Can I ask you a question. If your partner is so lovely why are you hanging out on this thread getting angry with women who are saying that some men are good?

I've said several times that I've had experience with awful men.

@PaulaZackMayo I've explained that. Many times. For the umpteenth time, NOONE is saying it's ALL men, my partner included.

You were so focussed on yourself and insulting me you clearly missed all the other reasoning behind what I, and many others are saying.

Go back and read the thread again.

I'm not naive to think my partner is perfect though. No one knows anyone 100%. My work in Criminal Justice and offending has shown this to me.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 27/09/2023 19:06

PaulaZackMayo · 27/09/2023 19:01

@MrsTwartle I trust most men. I don't understand the whole some men are dangerous so you should be wary of all men.

I live with my Husband and older teenage Son. I feel safe always.
You sound very naive.

This was the first time we engaged.

You were basically saying that I'm naive to trust my Husband and Son.

Yes, you got my back up. I'm not going to live in fear of the two people I love most in the world. So call me stupid all you want but I won't live my life like that.