To think it is actually mostly men?

[Nolpp]

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. (well tbf I usually am!)

That said, most women don't like this negative shit. The Fawcett Society (feminist charity) did a study that found that whilst 75% of women believed in equality only 7% wanted to call themselves 'feminist' nowadays. Hilariously, posters on that thread were getting angry and instead trying to point to a more recent study which showed that a whopping 20% of women were actually feminists.

Studies that have looked at why many women now regard feminism as 'a dirty word' found 'man hating' to be amongst the primary things women objected to. 😂 Although, to be clear it's only a particular type of feminism. It's like how there are men rights groups that tackle genuine men's issues and other 'men's rights' groups that are basically just incels.

However, to tackle sexism on here is to be labelled 'a misognist' which is highly ironic to me.

No, it's not quite saying that. The thread it was posted in did turn into a massive bunfight though. From memory, OP discussed her experience in a law firm and how she found that senior women often 'kicked the ladder away' and belittled the trainees rather than being supportive. Lots of gatekeeping etc.

Specifically, that they often weren't sympathetic to working mothers and felt other women should 'make the sacrifices they had', whilst the men tended to be 'kinder'.

A few posters took umbrage and then it became a massive bitchfest that kinda proved the point of the thread.

I think I linked the thread.

Here it is.

An interesting read. I've just skimmed through and had forgotten how bonkers it got. The admin had to step in. 😂 Going to reread properly when I have time tomorrow as was a good while ago I read it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3080265-Women-prefer-working-for-male-bosses?page=1

Yes it's not all men
Yes tIts women too
But I agree with you OP

Headlines day after day. Tate, brand, trump, wooton, fox, met police

It's....

@Natalya123 I think you need to be very careful about the use of biology to explain behaviour in humans to justify or explain stuff. We still have choices, unless you're a believer in determinism rather than free will.

I'm wary of all the studies I've read about, personally. Even it you ignore all the things you need to account for with your participants like age, geography, ethnicity, class/social status etc the sample sizes tend to be too small for me to trust! When I do think about all that those things, and the numbers involved, it's even worse. Are they serious studies? I have my doubts

Tbf, one of the studies where they preferred male bosses had 500,000 participants. I think it'd defo give a better indication than the one cited earlier in the thread about men raping women if they could get away with it, for example. That was a much smaller number, with all participants from the same college, and presumably from a narrow age range. Yet nobody questioned that one.

I think people tend to accept data that supports their views and pick apart data that doesn't. It's human nature. Obv I'm not aiming that at you, just in general. There's lots of data showing women don't like female bosses but not much showing the opposite so I do believe it tbf.

I believe testosterone plays a large role. It makes almost every male mammal more violent and there are loads of studies showing that violent offenders have higher levels and that increasing levels affects the fight or flight response. It makes women more aggressive too but obv we have only a fraction of the levels men have.

I've been thinking about this thread today. I feel quite sad that there are women out there that have had such bad experiences with men. I see the news. I'm also frustrated that the good men are tard with the same brush.

I've been to see Micky Flanagan tonight with my Husband & our friends. We thought he was hilarious and we've had a good night. I do think some women on this thread wouldn't find him that funny because of their opinion of men. He jokes about men and women.

I had a really abusive first boyfriend but all the other men have been great.

He is a funny man but I think it would really piss some Mumsnetters off.

I don’t quite understand what women not wanting to work with female bosses has to do with a perception some of us have that there is a problem in the world with toxic masculinity, which can take many forms. And we are not just talking about violence against women, although that is part of it; we are talking about the subtle everyday misogyny that we face every single day of our lives.

it is interesting to me that there doesn’t seem to be much research on this (is there?) The idea that men are “kinder” made me laugh. Perhaps it is the benevolent “kindness” of male privilege (which not all men have access to). They can afford to be kind to us when we don’t pose a real threat. The minute we do then watch out for the backlash.

I also do not understand why a few women have jumped in this thread to defend men when most of us have already prefaced our posts to acknowledge that it is NAM.

YANBU at all

its far far too many men - that’s the issue

and that we women are meant to be correctly. Their behaviour rather than the good men who rarely if ever say anything 🙄

I don’t quite understand what women not wanting to work with female bosses has to do with a perception some of us have that there is a problem in the world with toxic masculinity, which can take many forms.

I suppose for me it's because lots of posters thst don't like men often seem to have this sentimental view of 'the sisterhood', when in reality it doesn't exist in real life. An all female island, for example, would probably be the most toxic place ever.

In fact, I watched a reality tv show years ago that had teams of men/women on an island. The men built shelter and were barbecuing on the beach by the second day. The women were still squabbling and hadn't got anything done. 😂

I also do not understand why a few women have jumped in this thread to defend men when most of us have already prefaced our posts to acknowledge that it is NAM.

Look at what some people are saying. It wouldn't be deemed acceptable to say these things about any other demographic. Stats aside you'd be crucified in record time if you said you hated all black people or disabled people etc. Anyone who says they don't like asylum seekers or say Muslims is seen as racist Tory/Daily Mail scum in spite of their massive over representation in sexual assault and misogyny.

@Natalya123 im white but if a black person told me that they were absolutely fed up of the behaviour of white people, systemically, historically and in their personal experience, I would totally take it on the chin. Because racism is real, a huge part of their day to day lives, evidenced over and over in data and stats. If they told me they no longer trusted or wanted to hang out with white people, ditto. because racism is real.

I also do not understand why a few women have jumped in this thread to defend men when most of us have already prefaced our posts to acknowledge that it is NAM.

Happens every, every, time. But hey, men aren't that bad as an old Daily Mail survey says that women hate having male bosses 🙄.

*correction - women bosses.

Look, I'm not trying to silence people or 'shut down debate'. I'm a firm believer of free speech. However, we need to acknowledge that the majority of women, especially young women, aren't on board with this rhetoric and actively distance themselves from it. Plenty of studies show that.

@Natalya123 i didnt feel like this as a young woman either. but after decades and decades of shit, you get tired.

How do you know the majority on this board feel this way? Have you asked them all? From this thread alone you are in the minority.

Or, how about you let the ones who want to vent about what they see as a problem (males being statistically the more violent sex class) and let them speak about that and their lived in experience, and you start your own thread in defence of the poor males who are being treated by females and misrepresented?

And a lot of what you've posted you've presented as fact when really, it's just your opinion.

That said, most women don't like this negative shit. The Fawcett Society (feminist charity) did a study that found that whilst 75% of women believed in equality only 7% wanted to call themselves 'feminist' nowadays.

As the Fawcett Society has taken a rather large detour from their feminist roots to include men in their definition of women, they have alienated many women, I’ll take this with a pinch of salt.

As for female bosses - in many workplaces women have to behave in a certain way to be taken seriously as potential promotion material, and people (including women) interpret these actions differently to similar behaviour in their male counterparts.
It’s well known that men can be assertive but women will be bossy. Men can be perfectionist, women are nitpicking.

That article about that monster made me feel physically sick.

I would say that reality TV is probably an example of how under patriarchy women are encouraged to compete with and hate each other (the “prettiest” thinnest women get all the spoils of patriarchal approval etc).

i am guessing that women who say that it is so awful to work with women are actually the women who unconsciously support men who hold women back and who interpret female leadership as bitchery and overstepping the mark. When I was a boss I didn’t get as much aggro from the females in my team as from the men but the women saw what some of the men were doing and didn’t do anything to support me - their lives were easier that way.

I would also say that the men who made my life hell at that time were in the minority. There was one particularly nasty individual but his venomous anger and jealousy was incredibly impactful and made even more so because he was silently supported by others whose silence around his behaviour was almost like complicity. I kept records of all his (not so) micro aggressions which was the best thing I ever did. Because I was able to use it when I made a complaint against him.

when I look at the counting dead women website - and I advise you to do so as it is very sobering g. I realise that the actions of a minority are again incredibly devasting and have a powerful impact on many women, even women who are strangers to the perpetrators in that it instills fear in us - and a fear that is justified because many perpetrators of violence and abuse masquerade as good people. We should be doing something to stop that minority and protect women because any of us could be victims of this and many of us have already been so.

The cute defences of lovely men on this thread do not quite cut it because the lovely men should also be our allies in stamping this out.

in many ways one of the reasons that dv and abuse of women continues is because women are so ashamed to discuss the early signs of abuse. If she is with a seemingly “lovely” man who is going to believe her?

This thread is attempting to discuss something serious and important and for some reason there are people on here who come on with “statistics” to prove we are incorrect in our assumptions. I suggest that those people start their own thread but I suspect that they won’t because they won’t have the pleasure then of goading us because we won’t be hopping onto such a thread ourselves.

I don't think your experience is the norm living in a politically moderate western country.

However, I've never been one to get too bothered about microaggressions. It's just petty nonsense. I think this is a key difference between men and women and how they interact.

For example, the builders/tradesmen I work with would think nothing of shouting to their mate to "stop eating and do some work, you fat bastard."

Can you imagine the WW3 that would ensue if somebody said to a fat woman "stop eating and do some work, you fat bitch"!!! Some would straight up report you to the police for committing a hate crime!

So, yes, men aren't as insufferably pc but generally I find them less hard work than working with women, especially competitive women in corporate environments.

Talking about the minority that rape/kill has no bearing on the vast majority of men. It's not 'not all men'. It's 'not most men'. I mean, you wouldn't start banging on about suicide bombers to a Muslim person and expect to be taken seriously. There's defo a discussion to be had about male violence but it doesn't relate to the average Joe or have relevance to petty microaggressions.

I'm probably going to get deleted again but I honestly can't believe that you have many many woman friends and they have ALL been seriously sexually assaulted or raped.

You've also never come across a bitchy woman.

I find this very hard to believe.