To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

[Kingofx]

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

And I think it equally flabbergasting that you do! Perhaps the married men you know are much more desirable than the rather average specimens I encounter because no, I can't imagine enough women thinking that about them for it to be the kind of trend you believe it to be. However as neither of us has any real evidence to support our opinions, and are not mind readers, we must agree to differ.

Forums are full of women bemoaning that a married man won't leave his wife for her. I think this is a pretty good indicator that women, fairly commonly, get involved with married men with the hope and expectation of replacing the wife. But agree to disagree then :)

It really doesn't matter how 'predatory' the other woman is. The sole responsibility lies with the cheating partner. You can be angry at the other woman, but the blame for the destruction of a marriage does not lie there.

But those forums are not a random selection. You don't know how many women who don't want this outcome are out there. They won't be moaning on the forum will they

But those forums are not a random selection. You don't know how many women who don't want this outcome are out there. They won't be moaning on the forum will they

No, but you won't find any men saying the same

I've never been the OW, but in theory I don't really have a problem with it. I don't believe in marriage, I think we should all be allowed to sleep with whoever we want (assuming consenting adults OFC). If someone is married that's neither here nor there to me since I don't believe in marriage-I haven't signed a contract to live by those rules, if someone else has it's on them to keep to it.

I think I would take it far more seriously if people didn't leave their partners so easily these days. People of my parents generation who have been married 25+ having their marriages destroyed by cheating? Terrible. This generation where such huge numbers get divorced and end up married again or in another LTR anyway inside 2 years? Not such a big deal.

Really @Firefly1987 so you’re all about consent as long as it’s not the right to informed sexual consent for the betrayed partner. Their right to consent is nil and void? Why?

@Susieb2023 because I don't believe/agree with marriage and I'm not the one signing any papers. Like I said if I was in the situation I might feel different and probably wouldn't go there at all. If people aren't serious about marriage or LTR and their morals are gonna go out the window they shouldn't get married in the first place.

So you only care about your own right to informed sexual consent? Is that right? Everyone else be damned because you’re not married to them? Or are there cases where you do feel that informed sexual consent for ALL people (and not just yourself ) is important?

See @Firefly1987 i may not know someone, I may not be married to them BUT I do believe in their right to informed sexual consent and I wouldn’t do anything to remove that from anyone. But each to their own.

I don't really know what that means in this context, how do people in open relationships deal with that?

I was a victim of an affair, part of the trauma for me (among many other things) was that I consented to sex with him when I did not know he’d had sex that day with someone else (many times). If I had known I would not have done this. He stole my right to informed sexual consent. It is a horrific side to affairs. I was not in an open relationship. I was (I thought) in a committed relationship with someone who respected my body, and my right to my sexual health

In an open relationship you KNOW that it is likely or going to happen.

I honestly believe everyone has the right to informed sexual consent, affairs rob a person of this. I wouldn’t want to be involved in this.

I was a victim of an affair, part of the trauma for me (among many other things) was that I consented to sex with him when I did not know he’d had sex that day with someone else (many times). If I had known I would not have done this. He stole my right to informed sexual consent. It is a horrific side to affairs. I was not in an open relationship. I was (I thought) in a committed relationship with someone who respected my body, and my right to my sexual health

I agree so much with this. It's a huge violation of someone's right to make choices about their body as well as their emotions

I'm sorry that happened. I honestly hadn't even considered that (as I say I was speaking hypothetically and probably wouldn't feel the same in the actual situation) as you say it was your spouse who stole this from you though not the OW.

I don’t know, he couldn’t have done this without a willing participant. That’s the thing about affairs you have to have a willing participant.

I personally wouldn’t want to be that willing participant in the abuse of someone else, whether or not I knew them, which always seems a pitiful excuse.

I just hope that as we discuss infidelity more and understand the trauma that is reigned down on the betrayed, along with a deeper understanding of sexual consent, people will think twice before engaging in affairs.

@Susieb2023 ok but if you had the same philosophy on relationships as me you wouldn't view it as "abuse" if you think everyone should be able to sleep with who they like as long as they're an adult and consenting.

I think I got this view after seeing so many marriages split up and then they're just with others in a very short time raving about their new spouse and completely forgotten about their last one. It's incredibly hard to find a relationship because people move on so quickly and are only single for 5 mins. It's a window of a very short amount of time-you could like a guy, but he's married so you stay away, 2 years later he's divorced that wife and now with another one, and she's moved on as well. But yeh I hadn't taken into account the whole informed consent issue. I still think this is on the spouse not the woman who is single and free to sleep with whoever she wants.

I'm not sure abuse is defined by the philosophy of the person engaging in it, as much as the impact on the victim.

Its just shitty to sleep with someone else's boyfriend, partner, husband.

Absolutely appalling.

That's true, but to be fair it's the first time I've ever heard an affair be described as abuse. If the OW is clean from STIs I don't really understand how she is partaking in any abuse. She's free to sleep with whichever consenting adult she likes, even moreso if she believes in open relationships. She's not agreed to live by the moral code of monogamy, the husband is the one who has.

These are rationalisations which are nice on paper but if your actions are hurting others it doesn't really matter what your philosophy is. They won't be like "oh, I am not traumatised, sick or falling apart because the OW doesn't believe in marriage.

Our laws in the UK (and around the world) on human rights, are based on individual freedoms and safeties. But a few are qualified rights. That means you exercising your freedom is fine, as long as you're not harming people.

David Duke, for example, has a personal philosophy of being a massive racist. He's allowed free speech, but not if it crosses into hate speech which harms others who don't share his philosophy.

So morally speaking I'd say someone who doesn't believe in marriage should respect the fact that others do, and select sexual partners according some kind of ethical code that includes not actively participating in things which cause great harm.

IF the OW knew about the spouse, then I would be of the opinion she is as equally as accountable. I don’t agree with slating or tearing anyone apart regardless of circumstances, but I personally would feel disgusted and dissapointed by the OW along with spouse. If the OW had a spouse, I’d be inclined to reach out to them and inform them, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to tell any of their friends or family.

If the OW was completely oblivious, I’d feel some level of sympathy towards her but I wouldn’t be extending my hand out to be their best friend. At the end of the day, it takes two to tango.

It really is a case by case thing!

My closest friends dad cheated on her mum with two women. One was local and knew about their marriage and children, and the other was located in America that he would occasionally see while on business and would fly out for birthdays or events to see. The American lady and dad were both CEOS of a pharmaceutical company and always on the go so she never suspected he had a wife and children in the UK, they were connected on Linkedin and Whatsapp’d/Facetime’d frequently throughout the months. They weren’t direct colleagues either so she never questioned his relationship status with other colleagues and no one ever spoke about it. She was genuinely naive and so oblivious and was heartbroken when she found out, she provided all the receipts to my friends mum in support of their divorce and went the extra mile by paying for multiple spa days and afternoon teas throughout the divorce settlement. The local OW thought she won the lotto and that her and friends dad would be together, she made life an absolute misery for my friends family especially her mum and refused to provide any receipts when it came to their divorce. Her whole Facebook was dedicated to quotes aimed at friends mum and she went as far to photoshop a picture of herself and my friends dad. She was plain bonkers and was dropped as soon as it became public. From what I know, she was an “easy” shag and didn’t care if the dad came and went, it was actually revealed he never even stayed overnight or took her out on a date.

Wild!

If the OW had a spouse, I’d be inclined to reach out to them and inform them, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to tell any of their friends or family

I am always in two minds about this one. Its incredibly traumatising news, and how you hear it makes a difference. You never know how fragile someone is so I'd be really worried 😟

@Sugarandbread that's a good illustration of the level of nefarious intent and how it can be wildly different from case to case!

How do you know though that the local OW didn't have incredibly low self esteem and had been abused herself before and had serious mental health issues which were exacerbated by your friends dad treating her like shit? Calling her an "easy" shag is horrible. Maybe she just wanted to be loved and this was the only way she could feel it. You say she thought she'd be with the friends dad forever. So she obviously wanted a relationship not just sex.
I have a friend who was abused in the past. The men she chooses now are awful. She hasn't had any married/ in a relationship type men that I know of but they treat her similarly. Come round for sex and leave etc. Don't take her on dates. She accepts this. I've tried discussing it with her and she explains it away by how busy they are, they're so nice when they are there, they say they love her so they must mean it, next year they've said they'll go on a nice holiday.... etc etc.
It's actually very sad that her bar is so low and she can't see that she could do so much better. Each time these men dump her she's devastated. Then the pattern repeats itself next time. If she was to start sleeping with a married man, she wouldn't be doing it to hurt the wife. She can't see or understand normal relationships. Ideally she needs therapy. But convincing her of that is impossible.

Men are far less likely to be on a forum though. They are less likely to talk full stop. They internalise more