To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

[Kingofx]

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

I agree most people who would have an affair probably wouldnt steal a wallet. But it's meaningless because the comparison is a false one.
A better question would be - If you saw someone drop a wallet that had a sign pinned to it saying "Please take me. The person who dropped me doesn't really want or appreciate me. She actually has another wallet I think and just keeps me from habit" would you take it?
Because that's a lot more reflective of the sort of information OW are generally basing their choice on, naively or not.

You speak a lot of sense! Life is a lot more complex sometimes than just 'the ow is as guilty.'

I’m just interested in the moral difference, for them, between theft, or anything else which is generally known to be “wrong” and infidelity.
I'd say both are wrong but are totally different issues.
In situations of infidelity I suspect there's dishonesty between the affair partners too which adds further complexity as at least one of the affair partners is operating from a position of having less information.

For example, I know of people who have stayed together for the sake of the kids or have stayed together unhappy until the children were older. The relationship wasn't a happy thriving one. I don't know if any of them cheated at any point but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a don't ask don't tell situation.

There's also a lot of men who have a script that they wheel out about how them and their wives are like room mates, not intimate any more, can't leave, the usual lines. They're probably going to churn these lines out with any woman they think might be stupid enough to fall for it. Their wife is at home and completely unaware that he's spinning these lines and when he is home he plays doting father and husband. I suspect the older men who are always bed hopping, or trying to, with younger colleagues fall into this camp.

For the other woman she has no way of knowing which of the two men above are telling the truth. Now obviously the solution is not to get involved with either of them, but once that line has been crossed there's probably layers of dishonesty underpinning the whole relationship (eg excuses why he can't leave his wife, not the right time, promising the earth, both of them pretending that their fantasy of running off is an option when really both of them aren't going to break their family unit)

They're unlikely to be truly honest with each other so they're making a series of decisions and justifying it to themselves based on falsehoods.

Cheating isn't ok obviously, but I think the oversimplification of comparing it to other actions misses the point.

Ultimately it is the husband to blame, but there are 2 women who I will never forgive for having affairs with husbands of my friends.

One was my friend's best friend and maid of honour at their wedding. No argument that she didn't know when she started shagging my friends DH, 2 families and 4 children harmed by her. She told him she'd leave her DH for him, did she fuck. She just is a serial seducer. He is worse, he should have said no.

Second a similar situation with 2 families with children, where the DH had an affair with his cousin's wife. Both equally vile.

But generally speaking the DH is totally to blame for his infidelity.

@MidnightMeltdown

I agree with you. I think we are very selfish as a rule, society almost considers it as a good thing in some ways. Money is another good example. I think we justify as a society allowing far too much inequality

@Kingofx
After reading your original post, I am left thinking that no wallet ever walked up or called out " here I am please take me. On the other hand , all cheating husbands knowingly and willingly engage with their cheating partner. Not one of the aggrieved partners have ever claimed that their adulterous partners were victims of rape.

The OW, however odious owes you nothing. There are only 2 people who have any obligation to respect a marriage , and that would be the 2 persons who are married.

I don't think that problem is that there are 3 people in the marriage, I think that the problem is that the at least 1 partner in the marriage is not committed to the concept of fidelity and when the desire of opportunity presents itself the less committed partner acts on his inclination.

It is as helpful to blame the phase of the moon for the infidelity as it is to blame the OW. It is possible to blame both the moon and the OW, but neither leads to any productive outcome.

@Kingofx I've just had a Google of the OW support forums, some of what is on there is genuinely eye opening!

I know @Survivingmy3yearold . I think people are quite naive. Definitely opens your eyes once you come across these types of folks!

I think the bottom line basically comes down to do you belive that affairs are acceptable.

And if you belive affairs are acceptable behaviour, would you be hurt if one were to be conducted behind your back.

The blame after an affair is a different question, one that maybe shouldn't exist if you don't believe in the premise of affairs.

I think unfortunately the naivety cuts both ways. As much as we like to think we know someone, we only ever know what they choose to show us. That's why I'm always surprised at the number of women who insist "My Nigel would NEVER cheat! I chose wisely".
I imagine there's a link between this sort of certainty and the need to see OW as predators. It's very difficult to have to review everything you've believed about your relationship and your own 'wisdom' of choice (which is of course nonsense, its nothing to do with how wise you were) Hence the mantra gains a qualifier "My Nigel would NEVER have cheated...if it weren't for that evil OW and her magical power of persuasion"
Any woman who has spent time around groups of unaccompanied men, who is, or has been young and/or attractive will know that a great many of them behave in ways their spouses would be extremely shocked by, as they have no resemblance to the devoted husband they present as at home, and they are all someone's Nigel.

I know you've got a humorous tone to that but in a sense it's mocking and belittling people for trusting their spouse. Most people deeply believe their spouse would not betray them which is why its so traumatic when they do.

Its not mocking people who trust their spouse. Its a comment on a very specific type of trust that we see frequently on these threads. The trust is mainly in what they see as their own wisdom in choosing a good man who would never cheat. My point was that for people who have their trust for their spouse tied up in their own good judgement, its an extra hurdle in the process, and blaming the other woman helps with that. Obviously it's not applicable to all spouses, but there's a definite trend to 'other' women who's partners have affairs as having chosen badly, missed red flags etc, alongside the it will never happen to me mentality. Then when it does, the OW can be a face saver.

5128gap
You make a good point.

To be fair though, the "I trust my DH" sentiments that aren't as naïve/forceful as "My Nigel would never cheat" are usually on threads where the discussion is about boundaries in relationships.

Women who trust their husbands, don't go through his phones, don't ban female friends, etc are often deemed to be 'cool wives' who have no self respect and have low standards.In reality I think a lot of the people who say they trust their husbands have quite a healthy view that they trust their husband, if a situation happened where he did cheat that's 100% his responsibility, but they're not willing to live a life of suffocating paranoia.

It's often contrasted against couples who go through each other's phones because that's 'trusting', couples who betray their friends' confidences by spilling all to their spouse because "I couldn't keep secrets from Nigel. We don't have secrets", they don't have opposite sex friends because they trust each other but not the general public (who are presumably all ready to drop their pants at any opportunity). I think couples doing this are better off splitting in my opinion but they clearly find value in that approach.

I think what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to male infidelity the anti woman attitudes are front and centre at every stage.
One if the most common feelings of a betrayed spouse can be shame. Where does this come from? Well for me, a large part is rooted in the idea there are cheats and non cheats and it's a woman's responsibility to choose a non cheat in the first place. Women tell each other this all the time. Look on any thread that poses the question do you think all men could cheat? And you'll see all the posters insisting absolutely not as their DH has morals etc, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to find a better man.
When confronted with their own betrayal women who have internalised this need to square the circle. Enter the predatory OW.
I'm not defending having affairs with MM, but the blame of the OW exists as part of a wider context of holding women responsible for male behaviour that helps none of us.

Yeah I think sometimes on certain threads some women can never win. It's either you're a cool wife or paranoid and untrusting. In real life most people probably fall in the middle.
I don't go through my partners phone. But I know the code and he leaves it all over the house so I could if I wanted. I don't ban female friends but we have had discussions about boundaries and where we both think (and seem to agree for now) a line should be drawn. Does that mean I think he'll never cross that line that he agreed to? Of course not. That's why so many "good" men do end up cheating. They convince themselves why what they're doing is fine etc. And how they're only lying because it "might look bad even though its nothing".
I trust my partner 90%. I've been cheated on before by previous partners. Being a paranoid mess won't stop him cheating. So I have to trust him to a certain extent. But I'm well aware no one is safe from being cheated on. I'll always have that little bit less than 100% trust in order to protect myself should the worst happen. I'll still be devastated. But not as much as if I thought it would never happen. And if it did happen, I'd blame him. Not the other woman.

@5128gap I think when people come to Mumsnet it's in the first moments or weeks of shock generally. In those phases, they're in denial. Often their spouse is still lying to them and often they're natural interior defence mechanisms have displaced anger onto the paramour as as way of battling the cognitive dissonance.

Fairly quickly, that gives way and the betrayed can accept what their spouse has done. I've never met anyone who months/ years on from the affair hasnt redirected that to their spouse. Dependent on circumstances their attitude to the OW will become more reflective of facts.

For example, if the OW was remorseful and immediately minimised damage to the spouse, the spouse will often let go of much anger or blame.

If, on the other hand the OW was vengeful, cruel or spiteful, they will apportion more blame. Justifiably.

My point is to allow allow people to feel that. If the OW has done wrong to you, I don't think it's helpful to be told they're innocent.

All affairs are not equal.

I have read some where it's obvious the cheater is cruel, unrepentant and most definitely has tried to shift blame into the paramour.

I have read others where the paramour was the instigator, possibly DID prey a fair bit on the weaknesses of the cheater and the cheater has commnited a great deal of time and energy to remorse and atonement.

I think most women who travel through years of affair recovery, likely counselling, are pretty well able to identify who-did-what, who's sorry and who's spiteful. In that space they do almost all come to a place of deciding for themselves how they feel.

I don't think it's helpful to try and use clichés on them to invalidate that. A great example is me personally being told I need therapy, am bitter, am stuck in the past, or am "stirring hate".

I'm so far along this road it amuses me rather than upsets me, but I know for certain. The woman who targeted me and my family in such cruel ways simply because she fancied a bit of my spouse and thought

A) if she destroyed me it would make him love her

B) if age couldn't have him, she was going to destroy everything he loved

Was not a good person. She was deserving of anger, name and accountability for her own actions

My spouse, by turn, did many, many wrong things and endured years of anger and of course ultimate blame, but he was also immensely remorseful and thus in time earned forgiveness.

Those who've been cheated on generally aren't bitter or stupid or deluded or (and this is the worst) "misogynistic". They just may or may not be angry at people who've done bad things to them.

I think they deserve support and kindness, as they are the only victims.

@5128gap

A better question would be - If you saw someone drop a wallet that had a sign pinned to it saying "Please take me. The person who dropped me doesn't really want or appreciate me. She actually has another wallet I think and just keeps me from habit" would you take it?

My wallet analogy was supposed to be about doing things which hurt others. Not comparing a human literally to an object.

However, if you think your description above is accurate it's probably why you feel like you do. Many, many, many, many people are NOT unhappy in their marriage and do NOT deliberately want to be "taken". That's very rarely the story.

It's again redirecting shame onto the wife. Ie: your husband felt unappreciated and was looking for a bit on the side. It's much more common WOMEN cheat for these reasons. And thus are far more likely to leave for the affair partner.

Men, far, far more commonly are just selfish with poor coping mechanisms and have weak boundaries. Or, just simply fancy shagging someone.

You keep accusing me of trying to blame the wife when ive been abundantly clear throughout this who is to blame. You keep pitting one woman against the other here, so that an attempt to understand the one is framed as an attack on the other.
I'm not saying it's true the cheat is unhappy, much less extrapolating from that its his wifes fault if he is. I'm saying that this is the typical claim of the cheating man.
Logically, can you imagine any conversation between potential or actual APS where the man waxes lyrical about how happy he is, and how much he loves his wife? Either they explicitly moan about aspects of their marriage to garner sympathy and make the OW feel like a cooler better woman by comparison, or they say nothing and let their willingness to stray speak for itself.
So yes, they are acting exactly like a wallet that says please take me, rather than a wallet that lies passively on the ground waiting to be returned to its owner.
You will say no, no, this isn't how it is. But really, how do you know that? How many times have you been a direct witness to the conversation a man has with a potential affair partner to know for sure they don't or rarely use that tactic? Because unfortunately I've more than once been on the receiving end, and its almost always some version of that.

But really, how do you know that? How many times have you been a direct
witness to the conversation a man has with a potential affair partner to
know for sure they don't or rarely use that tactic? Because
unfortunately I've more than once been on the receiving end, and its
almost always some version of that.

Of course we know men are predatory or can be, women too can be predatory, both parties have to agree with consent for a relationship to develop further.

Both the Nigel's of this world should have boundaries and the women who become the ow.

For any partner consent has to be given, being a woman in that dynamic does not absolve you of responsibility, regardless of the reasons why someone is pursuing you, upon discovery of someone already being in a relationship, especially with children there should be a definite refusal of consent.

For many, many people they would not need experience to understand that an affair could or would cause harm and pain, it's pretty basic stuff, the dynamics of blame needn't come into it, there should be no victim or purpitraitor between affair partners, it is an equal union of knowledge against an unknowing partner and children.

It's very poor behaviour and no matter how you try to aportion blame, it never negates the very poor characters of the cheaters.

What you are doing is trying to uplift the character of women against men and frankly it isn't possible, regarless of sex, an equality should and does exist that places the fault or blame squarely on both sexes or parties.

The fault does not lie with the betrayed partner, it's an devastating attack on an innocent bystander that some unsavory characters will use as a form of absolution and redemption.

As for the wallet, it is an innanimate object without feelings, the theft aspect comes from knowing the affair partner is stealing, time, affection, and resouces from a betrayed partner and children.

Be it a young woman with young children who needs the support of a man or an older woman who is suffering with menopause, age realted illneses and everthing in between.

The only truism is that whoever is actively pursing an affair outside of marriage, no matter what their reasons are, the reasons are probably false and exagerated and give a deep insight to who the actual selfish partner was all along in the relationship, it gives confirmation in my opinion as to why these marriages were unequal and bound to fail.

A pursuer is not a person to trust, it would instantly warn me as to who is lacking in insight, understanding, fairness, empathy and ability to bond within a marriage or partnership.

The reasons people become involved within an affair are not for reasons of trying to help or support another in a poor relationship, it is for purely selfish reasons, to either better their situation, their self esteem, mental health, body image, their finances, their future, their need for an ego boost, all entirely selfish at the expense of another.

It is a plan, a project, a programme of self advancement and entitlement.

But none of this matters if you don't mind casualties, which there always are.

I hear what you're saying and don't for a moment underestimate the devastation of an affair.
However, nothing will make me believe the blame lies equally with the OW, or indeed believe that predatory OW are a significant cause of men's betrayal of their wives. I accept they exist, but believe their numbers are too small in the scheme of things to see them as the key problem, which I maintain is the behaviour of certain married men. I think the focus on the OW is a red herring that serves only to excuse men who hurt their families, and provide a device to help them avoid owning their actions.
That said, my interest in this is theoretical, you, the OP and others have lived experience and have the right to navigate your way through that in the way that helps you most, and the last thing I'd want to do is seem unsupportive of any of you by continuing to argue the point.
Whoever is to blame, I think we can agree you were very wronged, and I'm sorry for your pain.

That said, my interest in this is theoretical, you, the OP and others
have lived experience and have the right to navigate your way through
that in the way that helps you most, and the last thing I'd want to do
is seem unsupportive of any of you by continuing to argue the point.
Whoever is to blame, I think we can agree you were very wronged, and I'm sorry for your pain.

I think you mistake the passion in my writing as a personal and recent betrayal, it is not recent, but I am willing to verbalise the devastation that occurs, I don't minimise in the hope that others don't think I am stuck or 'bitter', those words are used to close discussions down, to ease the conciences of abusers, my point is that any person of any sex who partakes in an affair is not a nice, kind person.

They compartmentalize for their own peace of mind.

The shutting down of peoples lived experiences covers bad practices, it has always been the case, but I believe there should be more acceptance that affairs are not part and parcel of human behaviour, that they arn't natural, that they should be held up as aborhant and willing and purposeful acts of harm, a hate crime.

Just as racism and homophobia are now viewed as aborhant so should affairs, they are not harmless, they are not vicitimless, they are as painful as any hate crime, depending on the circumstances, but make no mistake for many being on the sharp end of this dual attack by two other people it will become a pivotal moment in their existance, one that they may never recover from, the scars may not be visable but they will be deep.

I would hate to inflict that kind of lasting damage to another, it is not in my nature, to absolve yourself by means of ignorance is not an excuse, it never should be for hateful behaviour.

You keep accusing me of trying to blame the wife when ive been abundantly clear throughout this who is to blame

No, I am just trying to point out (from the wife's viewpoint) that some of the language and cliche's you have make the wife feel to blame and cause a lot of shame. I am sure that's not what you're trying to do, but I am pointing out the effect of it.

You keep pitting one woman against the other here, so that an attempt to understand the one is framed as an attack on the other

An affair pits one woman against the other by the nature of it.

I'm saying that this is the typical claim of the cheating man

I think this is a bit of a cliche! Fourteen years of talking to women and men in these positions and for the most part they don't mention their spouse at all! So I counter it, because it's also harmful to the wife. Some of the worst damage I have seen to people is when they question whether their spouse had doubly betrayed them by badmouthing them and have found this to rarely be the case.

Logically, can you imagine any conversation between potential or actual APS where the man waxes lyrical about how happy he is, and how much he loves his wife?

Of course, that's unusual (but occasional) as I said, one of the much more common things to happen is that the spouse avoids mentioning their wife / husband and family at all.

So yes, they are acting exactly like a wallet that says please take me, rather than a wallet that lies passively on the ground waiting to be returned to its owner

Have you got this idea in your mind of people sitting there waiting to have affairs with a t-shirt on saying "please hit on me"? That isn't generally what happens at all. The vast majority of the time it's someone they meet randomly through work, hobbies, school or clubs who starts texting them about one thing and then slips in a few flirty compliments and blah blah. They aren't looking. Most think they'd never cheat until the morning after they wake up in horror.

You will say no, no, this isn't how it is. But really, how do you know that? How many times have you been a direct witness to the conversation a man has with a potential affair partner to know for sure they don't or rarely use that tactic?

Many times. I've worked for 15 hours a week for 14 years with couples recovering from infidelity and I have seen the direct communication between MM and OW - given that one of the very first steps of "healing from infidelity" is handing over the passwords and phones and so on and the scenario you're describing isn't common.

Very sorry it happened to you though, that sounds horrible. I read my ex husbands messages and emails to his OW and he didn't criticise me or out marriage once, and kept saying he felt awful, it was a friendship that got out of hand and he wanted to stop it. Sorry, but that's often what happens

@TickyTimeBomb

What you are doing is trying to uplift the character of women against men and frankly it isn't possible, regardless of sex, an equality should and does exist that places the fault or blame squarely on both sexes or parties

I agree a few people come across as negative about men. I think the cheating statistic are not too different regardless of sex and women are just as capable of being rotters.

Thread on here yesterday with some woman who'd formed a fantasy about her friend with benefits being in love with her when he'd outright said he wasn't and wasn't even into the sex. He had considered her a close friend who he'd had sex with and he had explained he had an ex he was trying to patch things up with.

Her response? Instantly: I think she has a right to know (ie I have been rejected therefore I am going to try and ruin this man's life (who's supposedly my friend) and possibly hurt this completely innocent woman who may or may not be fragile.

People can be bloody awful

@5128gap

predatory OW are a significant cause of men's betrayal of their wives. I accept they exist, but believe their numbers are too small in the scheme of things to see them as the key problem

But this is just something you have decided. You don't have any data at all on this. I find it quite flabbergasting that you don't think there are women in offices and gyms and on the school run all over the country who don't meet a married man and think "mmm, fancy a bit of that". Of course they do! It isn't all married men looking at the secretary like 1950.