To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

[Kingofx]

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

You can't take someone else's husband. By the same token, they aren't yours, they're not your possession, they're a person with agency over themselves. They're supposed to use that agency to not act on feelings they may have for other people.

I get the anger, I really do, but honestly, what's the point of it? The OW/OM has no loyalty to you and you have no idea of what the conversations were between them and your spouse. It is always, always, ALWAYS, the fault of the cheating person rather than the person they cheated on you with.

A devoted husband/wife would not act against their marriage vows, no matter what the provocation. They alone have the ability to not cause their spouse pain; they chose their own pleasure instead. However wrong the other person involved is, you cannot divert your attention from the fact that it is the spouse who make this happen, who cared so little for their marriage that they actively chose to ruin everything.

@Usedandhurt

I’m genuinely not projecting- I’m simply pointing out that blaming a stranger for your husband cheating isn’t helpful

I blame someone for their actions. She persued my ex husband (as well as many other bad actions) and I hold her responsible for those. I hold my ex husband responsible for cheating.

And Huh? Helpful to who? Helpful with what? It's simply holding an individual accountable for things they did and calling out the folks like you who try to stifle that.

I also think it’s quite sad that you feel I’m attacking and patronising you. You started this thread and used your own experience so why them is discussing you or your experience off limits?

I have made it clear I'm happily married and haven't asked anywhere at any point for help with anything I'm feeling. You've decided to ignore my words and search for hidden meaning in order to do what people always do; which is to try and deny wives their perfectly valid feelings.

So I'll return the favour for you. Given your username "used and hurt" as well as the way you've characterised men comes across as you possibly not liking them much. So maybe you have things you need to get over?

For me, I judge all people by the same rules: be accountable for your own actions. And don't dictate to others that they can't hold people accountable.

Being cheated on was clearly a seminal moment in your life - so much so that you are still involved in groups that deal with infidelity- I’m just saying it doesn’t have to be

I want it to be. I thoroughly enjoy helping others in crisis. Its one of the wonderful things that came from this - along with my wonderful new husband

ticky it’s awful that what happened changed you forever - of course victims can always have a voice - my comment was not about forgiving and forgetting it was about not allowing someone who you trusted and who abused that trust continue to influence your life.

you are clearly a better person than him so why does his choices deserve to have an everlasting place in your life.

im sorry you were so hurt - and sorrier still that it has scarred you so badly.

I think we will have to agree to disagree- I have been badly hurt by men - not with unfaithfulness but other destructive behaviours. I’ve never tried to stifle anyone- if you view it as that then that’s your perogative.

my job entails resolution of conflict- I come from a very war torn place and an extremely difficult childhood- from experience and many years of study and counselling I can tell you that people who live in the past rarely come to terms with it.

I think it’s pointless me commenting further tbh as you find it offensive and that’s not what my intention was. I wish you luck

@TickyTimeBomb mate, you are entitled to deal with your trauma however you can. It took me years to be happy again and while you always carry the wound, it becomes like anything else you've survived and just a memory.

What's important is for you to be validated. YOU are the victim and like you say there was TWO perpetrators. I speak from my experience because I know first hand the myriad of feelings you have

Of course you have trauma as a direct result of both her and your exes behavior. It's okay to be RIGHTEOUSLY angry at her! Anger at the OW is absolutely appropriate and warranted as long as the betraying partner is in the hot seat where they belong. The betrayer and the OW are BOTH responsible for the affair.

Blame and anger isn't finite and you don't need to be told who you're allowed to direct that at. I don’t feel any anger at OW anymore - that is long gone. Logically I hold them accountable for their own actions. But I certainly needed to be angry at her back then, and I needed support as the victim to be validated in that.

People, in some cases, have assumed this thread is about the OW and really it's about trying to give the victim validation that it's perfectly okay to feel what you feel. That it's completely unhelpful and innacurate to try and persuade you that the perpetrator is innocent while you're still bleeding.

I hope you've felt that support from me, which is what I started the thread really for.

*ticky it’s awful that what happened changed you forever

• of course victims can always have a voice - my comment was not about forgiving and forgetting it was about not allowing someone who you trusted and who abused that trust continue to influence your life. *

It's not an option, it's unavoidable, just as anyone who has been in unfortunate circumstances and has been left with damage, there will be of course those who overcome their damage better, each situation is different but it will always be in their memory, it is unwipable as an event just as any experience is imprinted on our memory.

Of course you cannot expect any event not to influence your life, good or bad, we are our experiences.

And there are many who have been scarred badly, but even scarier are the silencers who deny someone their own reality, this is what prevents actual support for victims of affairs, the conversations that are shut down with the faux support and minimising, it prevents any real changes occuring for the actual victims that are currently going through the trauma.

I don't care about ow or om, I care about the people who have been assaulted.

I would like there to be more support, for them to be identified as casualties of henious crimes against them, with financial, community, medical and emotional support, charities set up for these victims who in some cases have lost everthing and in even worse cases have lost their lives through lack of support.

Perhaps I've grown up with a different perspective because my parents divorced when I was very young (not an affair) and I don't really believe in marriage, but to me, the idea that someone 'belongs' to somebody is problematic. If promises are made within the context of a relationship, those promises are only relevant or meaningful to the people who made them. They aren't necessarily meaningful to anybody else.

The only affairs that I've known of personally, have been between work colleagues who have ended up leaving their spouse for OW. These are people who married in their 20s, grew up, changed as people, and met someone that they were more compatible with in their 40s. I don't think you can really say that they were 'stolen'. People have affairs because they want to, not because they have been taken by someone.

It's not nice, but human beings are inherently selfish, and will put their own feelings (or the feelings of their family) ahead of the feelings of a stranger. People compete for all sorts of things - jobs, houses, and mates. Of course the potential damage is greater when it comes to mates, but I don't see it as 'abusing' someone, it's more the case that they are putting their own interests first.

@Buildingthefuture

To be clear, I think that the whole mentality of treating someone in a relationship like property is completely wrong. Nobody is 'taken' or 'belongs' to someone, and nobody can be 'stolen'. When you buy a wallet, you pay the price and it belongs to you forever. The same does not apply to people. We are free agents and everyday we make a choice about whether or not we want to stay committed to someone.

Thinking about people as possessions is unhealthy imo. I don't believe in marriage because I don't think that you can ever really commit to loving someone forever. People change and grow a lot over a lifetime.

“If promises are made within the context of a relationship, those promises are only relevant or meaningful to the people who made them.”

100% agreed.

I don't think it's about promises made to someone in a relationship. It's about understanding there are certain actions you can commit, which might be enjoyable for yourself, but which you are aware will cause harm or trauma to another human being.

Theft
Burglary
Catfishing
Conspiracy to defraud

Etc etc. These are actions you might enjoy for yourself or get benefit from, but we don't commit them. We don't conspire to commit them.

For example if a friend said to me that I could get £1000 if I let her use my flat to hide a kidnapped baby, I would say no! Not "oh well, I don't owe that baby anything" or "oh, it isn't me doing the kidnapping and if I don't let him use my flat someone else will". I would say no, because this would be harming someone, and would therefore obviously be completely wrong.

I think people apply a kind of false psychology to being the OW or OM. You did not make promises to the spouse, but you are still committing actions which will cause enormous harm to a likely innocent person and possibly innocent children. I am not sure why, as @TickyTimeBomb society seems to apply these double moral standards to infidelity.

As humans there are many things we might want or desire, but getting them might involve dubious actions and I think we all have to hold ourselves to that. It isn't about @MidnightMeltdown someone "belonging" to you. It's about the reality that they are married.

Ergo, if you have sex with someone married the almost definite consequences will be putting on another human being:

• Lifelong trauma
• Deep emotional pain
• Very likely mental health issues
• Very likely financial problems

And if they have children, it's foolish to think they won't also be impacted. My children needed counselling and the time and again many years later. These things damage a lot and change lives forever.

It's nothing to do with the romantic notion of someone "belonging" to you, but we live in a world where marriage has a meaning beyond feelings. We are not passing ships. When we set up home, finances, family, with another person there is a life there. Often every aspect of that life is more or less impacted for the spouse who's victimised.

The spouse is of course far more at fault because, well, he or she is supposed to be invested in protecting those things. But I simply don't believe the co-conspirator is blameless. They are aware at the time of their actions that they are likely to be at least partly the cause of this damage to a family and another person and if they make that choice, I just think they are accountable for it.

If I was single and met a man tomorrow and fancied him like mad and he flirted with me and started messaging me - if he was married - I would nip it in the bud. Because otherwise I would be a co-conspirator to cause trauma to another human being. I don't want to cause trauma or suffering to any human being. This isn't confined to just my spouse. It's a global setting.

This might not be something many OW or OM think very much about when they are deep in the thrill of it, and likely they don't stick around to witness quite the impact of their actions; but it does feel to me some people hold this to a different moral standard than almost any other offensive act.

I was widowed.at a young age, l have lost count of how many married men though l would be so desperate to go with them. In fact l have had to report not once but twice to the police for harassing and stalking me. Married men in my experience know exactly why they are doing, most are arrogant entitled twats and when asking how their wife would feel they couldn't give a shit. One married man laughed and said Oh, she will probably stop doing my washing for a couple of weeks"

I think the problem for me OP is that you are asking us to consider and judge a very narrow circumstances and a very specific version of the OW.
You keep referring us back to a characterisation of the OW, that for me at least, is at odds with what my life experience has shown me of typical male and female behaviour, who has affairs and with whom, how they start, how they end up.
You are asking us to consider the OW only as a predator who deliberately seeks out MM. Who 'conspires' with them to plan the deceit of their wives. Who has malign intent towards their wife and has deliberately entered a competition with her. Who spends her precious time with the man discussing criticising and laughing with him about his wife.
She has no self respect, self love or self esteem. She is so unattractive people are astounded she 'snared' the man, yet somehow also alluring enough that by a little flirting and smiling, she can force him to think of her in the shower.
She seeks to feel special, but doesn't get this from her affair partner as he holds her in contempt and despises her for luring him away from the woman he truly loves, his wife. Yet still she persists, to the point of stalking him long after he has seen the error of his ways.
We are discouraged from mentioning him at all in order to channel all our judgement to the OW. But when he is allowed a bit part in his own affair, he is reduced to a passive object with no autonomy, a wallet. Or at best somsomeone so weak he is unable to resist the demands of the repugnant individual who has set out to trap him.
There is actually very little dissent on here about the OW being wrong. Most of the opposing views have come from people struggling with a profile of the OW that doesn't really resonate, and the insistence of elevating her responsibility to the same level as the man.

I agree completely with this. The OP seems to be channelling specific storyline that perhaps reflects a specific situation that she wants to see in this context but in real life the set of characteristics and behaviours she outlines are like something from a bad rom com

I agree completely with this. The OP seems to be channelling specific
storyline that perhaps reflects a specific situation that she wants to
see in this context but in real life the set of characteristics and
behaviours she outlines are like something from a bad rom com

As opposed to the lovely way to conduct an affair.

What does that look like ?

I think the problem for me OP is that you are asking us to consider and judge a very narrow circumstances and a very specific version of the OW

Not really. The thread is about people who know the person is married and still persue and affair. You might think of that as a narrow set of circumstances, but women are fairly often the ones who persue.

You keep referring us back to a characterisation of the OW, that for me at least, is at odds with what my life experience has shown me of typical male and female behaviour, who has affairs and with whom, how they start, how they end up

I think this might be why you're struggling to imagine it being any different. A very large number of affairs involved a married woman for a start :) Perhaps spend some time on an infidelity forum and you'll a very wide range of stories.

You are asking us to consider the OW only as a predator who deliberately seeks out MM

Well, no, this thread is specifically about that type of person. I am not asking you to consider all OW like that.

Who 'conspires' with them to plan the deceit of their wives. Who has malign intent towards their wife and has deliberately entered a competition with her

Certainly some do. Other might not think about the wife at all. My post above yours explains how I feel it is morally wrong to have sex with someone who is married regardless of the characterisation and why I have that view. Certainly some people are actively malignant, and others just ignorant and selfish.

She has no self respect, self love or self esteem

I have never come across anyone who had slept with someone married who had high self esteem or self love, and likewise I have never come across anyone married who had an affair who had those things either. I can't picture making love to someone and them going home to their wife. I would have far too much self respect aside from anything else. I also can't imagine shagging someone behind my spouses back, because I would have far too much self respect for that too.

There might well be many people with high self esteem and self love and self respect who just feel extra marital sex is a good, healthy thing to do, but then they would have to place a very low bar on integrity, empathy or honesty - so by the way I judge people that would be incongruent with the qualities you've listed.

She is so unattractive people are astounded she 'snared' the man

Don't think I have said that anywhere 😕 Although it's certainly a common thing for people to "affair down". Some also "affair up". Depending on what the criteria is. When you speak to people years and years after an affair (providing they are not one of the people who left for the affair partner) they typically remember the OW as a screwed up person who was paying them attention and them being equally screwed up. It's not generally a really great romance people look back on fondly.

I have seen posts from people who say they left for and married their affair partner and lived happily ever after. However only 13% of affairs end up even being in a real relationship, so the data would indicate they are often not based on true love.

I would also imagine most highly attractive (not just physically but in every sense people) would have a preference for dating someone who was single, but that's just me guessing. If they don't, then I guess they have many, many options for dates and relationship but have just chosen a married person.

Yet somehow also alluring enough that by a little flirting and smiling, she can force him to think of her in the shower

People often become attractive to people that pay them a bit of attention, particularly if the person has low self esteem. Read some of the infidelity threads on here (currently one that's agonising) and women will often have sex with objective losers just because they felt on a low ebb and the person paid them a bit of attention. Not always the case, but the idea someone has to be high quality or special to end up worthy of cheating with is just not evidenced.

She seeks to feel special, but doesn't get this from her affair partner as he holds her in contempt and despises her for luring him away from the woman he truly loves, his wife

You just invented all that, never said anything remotely like that. But affair partner's do often get very cross when their object of affection won't leave their wife for them and will often retaliate in unpleasant ways.

Yet still she persists, to the point of stalking him long after he has seen the error of his ways

45% of stalking cases in the UK are carried out by jilted lovers, admittedly mostly men, but this is one of the most common motivators for this behavior. Yes, most OW just go away when told to, but some don't. When it happened to me I thought it must be a completely unique set of circumstances, but I know of people still being harassed a decade on. If you have a google, you will find many stories all over about this.

We are discouraged from mentioning him at all in order to channel all our judgement to the OW

My post literally above your clearly state the spouse is more to blame. I have said this many, many, many times. People have just been reminded that because the spouse is not the topic of conversation there is understandably more emphasis on the OW for the purposes of this convo:)

Theft
Burglary
Catfishing
Conspiracy to defraud

The difference with all these is that you can do all of those alone and still hurt the person. If I asked/begged/tried to convince my friend to burgle someone and they kept saying no I could still do it myself. It's only if they agree do we BOTH end up hurting the person. My friend hasn't hurt anyone if they say no.
So it's different to having an affair. I can't have an affair myself if everyone says no they won't agree. So if the married man kept saying no the affair would never have happened and no one got hurt.

Well forgive me if I've misremembered, it's been a long thread! But I thought you said your own husband's AP was older and balding and no one who knew them could believe it was her? Also that your husband was deeply regretful, realised his error and fought hard for the marriage, which I took to mean he realised it was you he really loved. I may have mixed it up with other posts though, so my apologies if you didn't say those things.
I don't deny there are women who each show some of the traits and behaviour you list. The difficulty for me is imagining a woman who has ALL of them, some of which are mutually exclusive. The embodiment of all that is repulsive and evil.
I think the motivation and responsibility of an AP is an interesting subject for discussion, but feel it's very difficult to speak meaningfully about what amounts to a cartoon villain.

@Dwappy doesn't that make both people responsible for an affair?

@5128gap

Well forgive me if I've misremembered, it's been a long thread! But I thought you said your own husband's AP was older and balding and no one who knew them could believe it was her?

I did, but I didn't say OW generally were this. Someone else had posted that men always went of to shag really gorgeous younger women and I was responding that's not always the case. I wasn't implying in any way that all, or even most OW are old and bald.

Affairs are not that different from other sex really - people do sometimes shag people they wouldn't consider for a relationship. Note people who were cheated on: Elizabeth Hurley, Beyonce, Sandra Bullock, Shania Twain, Shakira. All amazing, gorgeous, successful women and their spouse decided to shag someone objectively worse. It's not always the "hot younger woman" distracting from the dowdy, out upon wife. Sometimes the man is an insecure twat and he finds and equally insecure woman willing to big up his weak ego at the right moment.

Also that your husband was deeply regretful, realised his error and fought hard for the marriage, which I took to mean he realised it was you he really loved

All affairs are different, but in my case my ex never thought he "loved" the OW. She was someone he had sex with 6 times when he was pissed and at a low ebb in his life. He never considered a relationship beyond that or would have wanted one even if he was single. However, I have read many people have more emotionally charged affairs where deeper feelings (or belief of them) play a role.

I don't deny there are women who each show some of the traits and behaviour you list. The difficulty for me is imagining a woman who has ALL of them, some of which are mutually exclusive. The embodiment of all that is repulsive and evil

Well, you're referring mainly to my personal situation which is rather extreme. I believe her to be a bonafide psychopath and the things I have listed only touch the surface. Not that this is really relevant to the convo :) If you came over for a cup of tea and I showed you the full story you'd be pretty horrified. Both myself and my ex husband needed trauma counselling after the abuse we endured and the various terrifying behavior.

But obviously one person isn't all people. The point I am making is that some of those traits are things I see quite a lot in other situations too :) In particular the inability to take no for an answer. This isn't something I see from women very often in life. Generally I see women get rejected and cry and watch sad films and lose a few lbs on the heartbreak train. Harassment and revenge seems to be commonplace in the world of infidelity. Not sure why, but it's just what I've seen. As I said they have found links to lack of empathy / entitlement and so on paralleling with "spouse poaching" as a phenomenon. If you actually Google the female psychopath's profile, they almost always target married men.

I digress :D

As I said this isn't really about that one person - more about people in general being accountable for their own choices and the impact that has on others :D

They are totally different scenarios which is why neither of our arguments work fully either for or against.
It depends what you mean by responsible or blame etc. All the OW is doing is having sex/ texting/ having dinner etc. She is not having an affair herself as she is not married (in the type of situation we are discussing). The married man IS having an affair as he is married. So I still don't view them both as responsible for an affair. She may be a horrible bitch but he still could and should of said no then no affair would have happened.
In the case of stealing you are both doing exactly the same thing to a shop you don't know. Neither of you owe the shop anything. So that can't be used well as an example. Plus as I said you can do it alone. But if someone begged their mate to do it and only the mate did it then only the mate is responsible. So that argument doesn't work well either unfortunately.

@5128gap

It just occurred to me to point out - I work with people who are recovering from infidelity. Mostly couples. In these cases the cheater is always remorseful or at least giving the pretence of being (they do sometimes later turn out to be complete shits, but for the most part they do love their spouse). so I am sure there's many cases where the cheater is not remorseful, doesn't love their spouse, or where the OW / OM was wonderful and they ran off into the sunset - but I don't comes across those ones which might well tilt my view.

All the OW is doing is having sex/ texting/ having dinner etc. She is not having an affair herself as she is not married (in the type of situation we are discussing)*

She is having an affair. That's why OW say "help, I am having an affair with a married man".

I'd recommend googling "support forum for the other woman" and you can read some of the stuff they write. Most of them are actively trying to battle for the married man and are just pissed off he's not leaving his wife for them.

Women should probably learn that if a man really doesn't love his wife and really wants a relationship with her, he will end the marriage (regardless of kids and finances) and do it the right way.

Otherwise she's likely to just be an antidote to a weak, pathetic, selfish man trying to have his cake and eat it. I say that as someone who has seen many men recover from that mindset and become better people - but certainly at the time of cheating they are all selfish and lack any empathy.

I see strangely a different pattern when women have affairs. The OM generally gives them attention and flatters them and then panics and runs a mile when the married woman starts discussing actually leaving the spouse for him

Sorry to generalise about sexes as that's not always the case, but I see it so often

Just had a bit of fun reading....there is an older thread on MN called "Why did you have an affair". Had a read, figuring my perspective is so often from healing the marriage's perspective....

As it's MN, the bulk was from women who were married and had an affair - largely because they didn't like or love their spouse anymore and found someone better. So maybe that's a bit different as it's not really an affair as much as a terrible way to end it with someone...however, there were some really interesting other posts from various sides of the fence...

Here's a few extracts from the different sides / various posters...

Posts from OW

I did because I had such low self-esteem and wanted someone to want me. Backfired completely because I fell in love with him and he didn't! I was totally selfish and karma came back to haunt me. Never again. Each day is a struggle and I will never feel the same again.

For me it was love, pure love that I'd never felt anything like, before or since. AP is the love of my life and there's no doubt in my mind that he feels the same about me. We ended it last year because he isn't ready to make the move (young children) but is unhappy and in counselling.

Because me and the guy I'm seeing are utterly selfish. There's no excusing it, neither can claim home life is so awful and mitigating circumstances etc. We're not soul mates, destined to be together. There is simply an attraction there that keeps pulling us in.

I don't feel it is sordid or dirty - but I know the facts will say it is as it is an affair.
I don't feel bad at the moment because I am single. I know he has no intention to leave his wife because he doesn't want to be a part time father or have a costly divorce. His marriage is also sexless and they essentially co-habit (I do believe this)

I've been a OW. It was basically because I wanted to hold all the cards for once. It's a very long story as to how I ended up in that mindset, but it suited me at the time. I firmly believe EVERY man has the capacity to cheat, and it really is opportunity.

Posts from married people having affairs

Because I could. And I wanted to. DH is a perfectly nice person, and a good father. But... just want some excitement.

I had an affair (man) because it was offered on a plate and I fancied her. I wasn’t even unhappy. Didn’t get caught and put it to bed when it ended. Mates have done similar. Men don’t need much to get them interested !

I'm 1 year into an affair. We don't want anything to change, neither of us want to run off into the sunset with each other. He has his life with his family, I have mine and nothing overlaps. We don't 'intrude' on each other's family time and when we're together, it's because we would be away from home anyway. There is zero chance of us being found out. I love my husband but there are many issues with our marriage. Having said that, there are very specific reasons I don't leave him - nothing I care to go into on here but reason enough that I have to stay (nothing financial). Sex life at home is almost nonexistent... birthdays & Christmas as the saying goes! My sex drive is sky high, always has been. Nothing excuses an affair and I'm aware we're being totally selfish.

We are very careful about communication and it's been going on for over two decades now. DH and his DW have no clue. Both of us are happy with the situation and neither of us want more than we have. We aren't horrid people, as much as mumsnet would like us to believe that we are.

I have cheated on my ex partner in the past. It was because I never feel enough.

I had one a long while ago now and gave myself permission by telling myself I couldn't not. E.g. I thought of it like being on a roller coaster I couldn't get off once it started. Of course, that is total bollox. The truth really is that I wasn't scared enough of the repercussions for them to outweigh the excitement of what I was feeling.

I had an affair as I was deeply sad and lonely and he (ap) was a predator and took advantage of that. I see that now but didn't at the time. It carried on for another 2.5 years until his partner found some evidence that suggested he might be playing away. He dropped me like a hot potato and I was broken. Since then I've witnessed him trying to pick up with someone else.

Wasn't appreciated and got fed up. Her parents moved in which killed our sex life, our child was young which didn't help either, she was bullied at work and took it out on me. I avoided being at home and then avoided being together. This selfishness also led me to think i "deserved" something more. In this frame of mind, i got very close to a female friend, and this quickly turned into an intense emotional affair. We were both married, and were adamant that it could not turn physical. After about 6 months, some proper self-reflection showed me that i was being unfair to DW, the AP, my family and myself. i ended the EA. Several months after that, my DW found some old messages to AP, and it all came out. DW and i were extremely honest with each other about everything that had happened, and we agreed that we both had so much love for each other, we decided again to re-commit to our marriage.

.......................sooo....................... what stood out to me really was that the people on both sides of the fence were essentially enjoying it and not thinking at all about the repercussions. That generally correlates with my face-to-face experience with these things.

Interesting though! It always seems to cold to me!

@MidnightMeltdown of course no one “belongs” to someone else. You cannot take ownership of a person. My question re: stealing the wallet was one of a persons own moral standards. If you are happy to be OW/OM, knowing the damage you will do to another innocent party, but justifying it to yourself that you don’t know them, if it wasn’t you it would be someone else, you made no promises etc, would you also steal their wallet? Because the same excuses would apply. Personally, I wouldn’t do either and I think most OW/OM wouldn’t dream of stealing. I’m just interested in the moral difference, for them, between theft, or anything else which is generally known to be “wrong” and infidelity.

@Kingofx i read that thread and found it profoundly depressing. The ability of some people to compartmentalise, to simply not care or even consider the impact of their actions on others, or to undertake extreme mental gymnastics to justify behaviours that they know are damaging to others, reflects the poor position we are in, as a society. Selfishness rules.