To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

[Kingofx]

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

@Dwappy

Ps- i am also very much enjoying the debate. I like hearing other opinions even if i do not agree

Same, great fun to have a bit of bants! Be boring if we all agreed.

It seems to highlight why the "I trust my wife/husband... but I don't trust their colleague/friend/gym buddy etc" is strong. It seems there is a mentality out there where some people really believe the whole world is out to shag their spouse

I don't personally feel this way. I trust people until they give me reason not to.

This reminds be a bit of the Monica Lewinsky case. I was a young child when this happened, but from what I've heard, she was very much blamed and demonised by everyone at the time

I think, in fairness, that was a different time where the entire world seemed to have an attitude that a cheating man was just being a man! Times changed a lot, and I think - for example with the Matt Hancock thing, everyone just thought he was a complete shit!

Given that she was 22 and he was 49, I find this mentality absolutely astonishing

For me, I need to know what specifically happened before I judge people. I can make allowances for bad character when you are 22. You might not have learned enough about life to understand real empathy and we can be selfish pricks when we are young. I would, for that reason be instinctively a lot angrier at a 40 year old who shagged my spouse than a 20 year old.

That said, I don't think age is necessarily important. I remember when I was muuuuch younger and working overseas, there was a girl my age (20) in the office who loved shagging married men. I recall her saying she liked the sound of the voice of one of the guys from the US office and was going to shag him. We said "he's married" and she said "you just watch me". And she did. The man might well have been happily married, but he was no oil painting and he was a conquest to this gorgeous 20 year old and that still kind of sits on me.

She was young and probably never gave a thought to the wife. Later in life her views probably changed a great deal. Although in this case, without knowing the inns and outs my guess is that Bill Clinton pursued her and she liked the attention because he was the president. To me that puts fairly minimal blame on her due to her age and the position of him being the aggressor.

I also think that wives often find it easier to direct their anger towards OW because part of them is still in love with their cheating husbands and it's easier for them to blame a third party

This is certainly true in the early days. It is easier by far to direct anger elsewhere at someone who doesn't also share your kids. But I think wives who have been cheated on are entitled to that - the OW has given up rights for nice treatment when they made their choices. The wife is the only victim and she can get through it however she wants.

I do think later though, each person has a right to be angry at and blame anyone who has wronged them. If you have dealt with another woman aggressively pursuing your spouse (regardless of if they respond), I think you are well within the bounds of reason to blame them and hold them accountable for their own behavior.

@MidnightMeltdown i find the comparison to stealing a wallet interesting. As someone who grew up in the utter shit show of a parents affair, which still has repercussions decades later, I would never knowingly get involved with a married man. Ever. That is not who I am as a person and I couldn’t live with myself for doing it. In the same way, if I saw a woman drop her purse in front of me, I would pick it up and give it back to her. I wouldn’t think, “well, I don’t know her, I owe her nothing, if I don’t take it, someone else will, so I’ll have that”. But that seems to be the approach about married men, for some (note I said some!) women? Yes, I know a married man isn’t an inanimate object and he absolutely has a choice, no one put a gun to his head. But, this thread is about the Ow/OM and, if as a OM/OW you wouldn’t steal a wallet, which, at worst, causes hassle and inconvenience to another person, why would you partake in something that you know will cause severe distress and long term damage to them and often their dc?

The point of the wallet analogy was not enjoying things at the expense of others.

Not comparing people to wallets literally

Gorgeous 20 year old women who deliberately make a play for unattractive married men who are not wealthy or powerful are unicorns. Never in my fairly lengthy life have I ever heard of this happening. Yet the trope is still wheeled out on these threads as though one anecdote, and a lot of wishful thinking on the part of aging men, makes for a trend.
Unless your DH is extremely wealthy, famous or powerful and the sort of low life who would abuse those privileges for sex with a young woman, this is simply not something you need to worry about.
For every anecdote of gorgeous, predatory 20s women, most of us could raise you 20 stories of middle aged men making fools and nuisances of themselves mooning over and harassing young colleagues, who at worst are disgusted and intimidated by them, and at best see them as a joke.

@Kingofx I know that, but I was wondering about those who take no responsibility for being the OW/OM because they don’t know the wife/husband, if it wasn’t them it would be someone else, they never promised anything etc. Would they, in the circumstances I described, take the wallet? And if not, why not? What, for them, is the difference?

I agree with what you're getting at. "if it wasn’t me it would be someone else" is a really daft rationalisation and is also not something affair partners usually think anyway. Most affair partners think they're just very special and that's why they're so hard to resist.

If you read the threads here of people who've cheated, they're never "And he was flirting with me and I was horny so I figured if I didn't say yes then someone else would". They're a lot more like "I know it's wrong but he's unhappy at home and we have so much in common"

Similarly if you hear the cheater they're typically like "OM told me he couldn't stop thinking about me and I knew it was wrong but the chemistry was electric".

I think the psychology of it is about feeling special, desired, interesting even if it's rarely the case.

I was reading an ongoing thread on here by a woman having an affair and the OM sounds like such a dick, completely full of it, not to mention being a grade A loser, but she's besotted because he told her she was special.

People do stupid things if they get paid a bit of attention!

I think we do need to put affairs in their modern context too. 20 years ago an affair would almost certainly have started "accidentally" between work colleagues, at the gym or whatever. But in much the same way a lot of people meet through online dating nowadays, the same is true of affairs.

When people are having affairs nowadays, they're much more likely to go looking for it on Ashley Maddison or Illicit Encounters than to find themselves falling for someone in their social circle. It's all colder, more calculated and I think both parties in the affair deliberately chose to betray not just their own spouse but someone else's too. There aren't even any feelings of attachment at play when they set out, they go and do what they do just because they want the thrill of it.

In the modern context, I think it is more appropriate to blame the OW than maybe it was before.

That seems to be a bit of a contradiction OP with what you've previously said, that you are talking about OW who have deliberately gone after married men.
Women having affairs who believe they are special to the man will believe this because of the man's behaviour towards them. The courtship, the compliments, the flattering comparison with the spouse, the risks the man takes, the times he puts her ahead of his wife and family, sneaking off on family holidays to call, texts on Christmas day and so on.
I can't imagine any OW feeling special as she relentlessly pursues a reluctant MM who wouldn't have looked at her twice were he not a weak willed limp lettuce who can't say no to a determined woman.

I dint know the stats but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of affairs are not through hook up sites

That seems to be a bit of a contradiction OP with what you've previously said, that you are talking about OW who have deliberately gone after married men.Women having affairs who believe they are special to the man will believe this because of the man's behaviour towards them

I think going after married men is done EXACTLY to feel special. To feel like they are so irresistible and so much better than the wife that they can achieve their conquest. Conquests are so often about feeling a sense of superiority. The husband then foolishly believes he is also special because someone wants him (ugh)

Yes hardly anyone I've met in the thousands of couples I've worked with had affairs from hookup sites.

Vast majority are work colleagues. Then quite commonly also friends, neighbours or members of groups or hobbies.

It depends whether the OW actually knew. I went on a few dates once with a guy I thought was single, we’d met on an online dating website so why wouldn’t I? Had no idea he was in a relationship whatsoever, no sign of a girlfriend on his Facebook or anything. Got a message from his GF after she’d found our texts on his phone so I ended it straight away, obviously.

I was the ‘OW’ briefly and casually without realising and I’d imagine this happens a lot. I feel sorry for a lot of women who know they’re the OW but stay with the guy because he feeds them bullshit constantly too. That happens a lot, the guy tells her his marriage is miserable and wife is an evil bitch but he can’t leave her because of kids/finances or whatever. I imagine lots of women fall for this and feel like he will definitely leave his wife eventually but he never does.

I think you're right but it's also a flawed strategy. The odd thing about affairs is that the affair partner is rarely better than the wronged spouse in any way. People who have affairs are normally emotionally unstable which means they come with a lot of baggage; they're normally flawed characters because they are willing to cheat and there's not even a guarantee that they're better looking either.

After my ex-wife had an affair and the way she dealt with it, I'm absolutely convinced these things normally happen amongst people who are at a low ebb and seeking validation rather than people in a good space mentally. This was certainly the case with my ex-wife who found raising young children much harder than she expected especially with the hours I had to work to keep the mortgage paid. She was not in a happy place when she cheated.

I think you're right but it's also a flawed strategy. The odd thing about affairs is that the affair partner is rarely better than the wronged spouse in any way

They're certainly not operating from a healthy space. Relationships are meant to be formed with respect etc.

People who have affairs are normally emotionally unstable which means they come with a lot of baggage they're normally flawed characters because they are willing to cheat

I've never met a cheater (affair partner or spouse, that wasn't operating with some big flaws. It's just not how healthy people who love themselves behave.

After my ex-wife had an affair and the way she dealt with it, I'm absolutely convinced these things normally happen amongst people who are at a low ebb and seeking validation rather than people in a good space mentally

100% correlates with my experience. Generally affairs are two messed up people who are looking to feel better. The only exception I've seen is people who just genuinely aren't happy and have an exit affair.

That said I know two people who did that, and they ended up doing the same to their new spouse too. So clearly maladaptive methods!

This was certainly the case with my ex-wife who found raising young children much harder than she expected especially with the hours I had to work to keep the mortgage paid. She was not in a happy place when she cheated

I've never come across anyone who was! Talked to dozens of cheaters and it's always a similar story. A low ebb, combined with character flaws and an eagerly available affair partner.

kingofx do you accept that there would be no opportunity for an OW to become involved in a marriage unless invited to do so by the married person. My sisters ex dh pursued the OW relentlessly- there was proof of that. Why wouldn’t she feel special - HE pursued her, HE pleaded, gave gifts, meals, etc, why wouldn’t she feel special?. Why wouldn’t she feel that she was a prize. My sis ex dh obviously considered her worthy of ruining his marriage for. Pathetic man.

OP I can feel your pain through your posts - I’m sorry as it must be so awful- however I think in order to really heal you will have to accept that you can’t blame a stranger for what your husband did. People can be shitty - no doubt- but your DH was the biggest shit of all as he broke his word. You deserve so much better.

I dont feel any pain, but thanks :) this is ancient history for me, so what I have is empathy for others and the memory :)

kingofxdo you accept that there would be no opportunity for an OW to become involved in a marriage unless invited to do so by the married person

Not an invitation, no. But they've allowed it to happen most certainly with very poor judgement, boundaries and a host of other potential failings.

Just because your sisters husband persued the OW relentlessly, that doesn't mean this is how all affairs start. Quite often it's the other way around.

This thread specifically refers to when it's the other way around:)

And @Usedandhurt everything you describe I your post is exactly what the affair partner did to my ex husband.

SHE pursued him, SHE pleaded, gave gifts, praise, etc, why wouldn’t he feel special? The point of my theead (irrespective of what a shit a man has to be to allow it), it is still shit for the OW to do that.

You've got to accept not every situation happens like it does in your life. I'm aware men often persue women and I've been on the receiving end of some disgusting men trying to have am affair with me (note it made me feel disgusted and not special) but women do go after men shamelessly too.

I read a thread on here a month ago where this woman was asking if this guy was into her because she thought he was giving "mixed messages"

The story was basically he was shagging her when drunk, at her invitation, and outright telling her it had to stop because he just saw her as a mate but some people just aren't healthy and can't see the bloody obvious. Regardless, she carried on sending him songs on Spotify and making him biscuits! Women do sometimes become the persuer.

And sometimes OW are serial adulterers. I was talking to a guy yesterday on the support group I work at and the man who had an affair with his wife had a string of married women who he'd persued and romanced and love bombed when they were at a low ebb. So yes, I think sometimes people carry blame for breaking up marriages.

Clearly not in your sisters husbands case though as it sounds like he was the aggressor and likely falls into the category of people who would have cheated regardless eventually.

kingofx I’m sure there are lots of women who pursue men in relationships but the person in a relationship can say no. No one accidentally falls into bed with someone. You say it’s a memory to you now but I don’t think that’s quite true. It still appears very much present for you. Don’t you think that every person in a relationship has at some stage has the opportunity to cheat? The difference is that people don’t cheat on someone they love and respect- no matter what the temptation.

The OW is really incidental to it. Someone who steps outside their marriage via an affair is confirming how little value they have in that marriage- who they confirm it with is of no consequence.

I truly mean it for the best when I suggest you might try to concentrate on the future. You mention support groups etc - and that’s great- however not to a point where it keeps you living within the betrayal. Your ex dh was a coward- but you can be brave and put him behind you. You can’t do that though by focusing on apportioning blame to a stranger. Your DH wrecked your marriage not Denise from down the pub.

kingofx I’m sure there are lots of women who pursue men
in relationships but the person in a relationship can say no. No one
accidentally falls into bed with someone. You say it’s a memory to you
now but I don’t think that’s quite true. It still appears very much
present for you. Don’t you think that every person in a relationship has
at some stage has the opportunity to cheat? The difference is that
people don’t cheat on someone they love and respect- no matter what the
temptation.

The OW is really incidental to it. Someone who steps outside their
marriage via an affair is confirming how little value they have in that
marriage- who they confirm it with is of no consequence.

I truly mean it for the best when I suggest you might try to concentrate
on the future. You mention support groups etc - and that’s great-
however not to a point where it keeps you living within the betrayal.
Your ex dh was a coward- but you can be brave and put him behind you.
You can’t do that though by focusing on apportioning blame to a
stranger. Your DH wrecked your marriage not Denise from down the pub.

@Kingofx Looks like you've just had the get over it speech.

**

@Usedandhurt

Lol.

I’m sure there are lots of women who pursue men in relationships but the person in a relationship can say no. No one accidentally falls into bed with someone

Exactly. People can say no. Including the OW. If they don't, they're accountable for their own actions.

The difference is that people don’t cheat on someone they love and respect- no matter what the temptation

That is complete nonsense. Most people chest because they don't love and respect themselves.

*The OW is really incidental to it

They are still accountable for their own choices.

Someone who steps outside their marriage via an affair is confirming how little value they have in that marriage- who they confirm it with is of no consequence

Again, also completely untrue. I have worked in an infidelity support group for 14 years. There are many, many men and women who are unfaithful at and devote literally years of work to reconciling. Counselling, support groups, deep and difficult work they engage precisely because they do value their marriage.

You're projecting your sisters situation onto all infidelity and in reality about 25% of unfaithful spouses put in the very hard, gruelling work to repair - which they do because they deeply regret what they did.

I truly mean it for the best when I suggest you might try to concentrate on the future. You mention support groups etc - and that’s great- however not to a point where it keeps you living within the betrayal

Is there any need to be patronising and personal? You've never met me, this thread isn't about me or my marriage and you're not only giving unsolicited advice to a complete stranger but you're also trying to dictate to them how they should think, feel or choose to process their own history. Which is a little bit pathetic. I'm very proud that I took what happened to me and use it to help others and I've not indicated to you in any way that I'd like your hot take.

Everything about your post is just absolutely groan worthy.

Step 1: absolve the OW of all accountability for her actions thus absolving the perpetrator of any agency
Step 2: characterise the marriage as bad / not valued, rather than the cheaters, thus diminishing the victim herself
Step 3: imply ever so gently that if the wife doesn't agree with that she must be unhappy or (checks notes) not "brave" or some other such bollocks

Oh my gawd.

Shagging people is a choice
Trying to shag people is a choice
If you or they are married that's wrong
If people blame you or are angry at you, that's your own fault
People in good marriages they value deeply cheat all the time
Women and men who've been cheated on are entitled to blame who they like and feel however they like.

@TickyTimeBomb I rolled my eyes so hard I saw my brain!

I’m genuinely not projecting- I’m simply pointing out that blaming a stranger for your husband cheating isn’t helpful.

Im sorry but I don’t agree that a lot of affairs happen from poor self image - I work in an industry where affairs are quite common and the majority are men with too much confidence and little to no self control. I personally couldn’t forgive cheating as it’s just that - deceitful lying disrespectful using behaviour that my douse willing engaged in. I wouldn’t give 2 hoots who with because she is nothing to me.

I also think it’s quite sad that you feel I’m attacking and patronising you. You started this thread and used your own experience so why them is discussing you or your experience off limits? being cheated on was clearly a seminal moment in your life - so much so that you are still involved in groups that deal with infidelity- I’m just saying it doesn’t have to be.

as for getting over it - what’s the alternative?

We don't want to get over it, we don't need a bunch of especially ow telling us that our pain has a shelf life. If people want to remember the time they were attacked by two other people and traumatised it is their right to feel that and talk about it.

Anyone who has been through pain and trauma remembers, it is not something you can forget EVER.
It completely changes you, your thought processes and your behaviour after, you protect yourself for the future and are wary of situations forever more.

It not a choice, you have no option, you may try to cover it up but the abusive treatment has occured, the war happened, the fallout was real and eternally changed things forever, lives were altered and for much of the time it seemed to have been for pretty pointless reasons, even worse.

We are allowed to be victims, stop denying the betrayed a voice, if they wish to crusade agianst the very awful purpitraitors of vile behaviour then so be it, for whatever reason, if they wish to warn, comfort or sympathise with other victims so be it.

I really don't like when people urge others to forget, forgive and pretend reality ever happened, that in itself makes me wonder what their motives are.

We understand that people who have affairs are not worth bothering with and it would be easier if they came with a government warning stamped on their forhead but they don't, so we speak of our experiences with these people sometimes for warning and sometimes to just to be astounded by our bad luck in ever meeting them.

The actions of people who partake in affairs are extremely bad and inhumane, especially to the collateral damaged victims arround them.