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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

898 replies

Kingofx · 17/09/2023 11:59

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

OP posts:
TickyTimeBomb · 20/09/2023 22:33

Completely agree with that. It's one of the only legal ways you can abuse someone

It beggars belief that someone has even the cheek to question the pain endured by many of the betrayed.

You would not openly voice your areement about abuse, but an affair is just that, emotional and physical abuse.

You are participating and in agreement before, during and after the fact of known abuse.

Shocking.

Hopefully one day there will be more understanding and more lawsuits concerning the abuse, with people named for their contribution and involvement.

One day.

TickyTimeBomb · 20/09/2023 22:47

The family courts spring to mind

Of course it does.

bingbongbang23 · 20/09/2023 23:43

Kingofx · 20/09/2023 22:09

Speaking of and I'm asking the group at large - do or should hookers ger the same level of blame assigned to them as the OW ? Genuine question because my answer would be the same personally whether Ow or hooker in my book

To me this would be sex, not an affair. So no. Likewise a ONS would not get the same level of blame as someone who had a long term affair.

I sort of attribute blame or criticism to people based on their actions, motivations, known consequences and whether they feel remorse, but that's me personally.

My OP is about someone who knowingly persues someone married and might even try and battle the wife. To me, that's an almost astoundingly bad person.

I thought , for example that Gina chick who had the affair was an astoundingly bad person. Notwithstanding her own family, that whole episode felt like the yukky affair duo were completely vile to their spouses. Flaunting the affair on TV and so on. I felt so bad for their children.

Interesting post

As I said earlier, i betrayed my husband. I used the word affair, this was a ONS.

Do you not count them as the same?

IhateHPSDeaneCnt · 21/09/2023 00:00

Oh absolutely. Obviously, DH was a complete and utter arsehole because he fell for the trembly lipped oh woe with me / damsel in distress work colleague. She eventually slunk out, tail between legs - no one could stand her - nothing to do do with affair (but that didn't help) but because she didn't do any actual work. She also had form for stringing people along which led to one person being sacked.

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 00:07

@bingbongbang23

Do you not count them as the same?

Personally no.

A ONS is sex, not emotional, no premeditation, no regular, orchestrated conspiracy to harm. Nobody likes the idea of their spouse having sex with someone else, but for me and certainly every other woman I've encountered - the real trauma inflicted on you by an affair is truly brutal.

This, as a PP said is essentially two people "ganging up" in a sense against you. To gadslight you, endanger your health, jeopardise your kids / work / finances / home and worst of all to inflict mental trauma on you. You're given no agency to make choices to defend yourself.

That's a completely different thing to having unplanned sex with someone once.

An affair generally requires your spouse to completely strip you of your foundations in life with no warning, and it requires someone else - a stranger- to at minimum go along with it.

If a woman had a ONS with a married man, I'd be really disappointed in her. I'd think it was really chappy, but I'd imagine they've not really thought it over beyond being horny and an idiot for 3 or 4 hours.

OP posts:
Kingofx · 21/09/2023 00:10

@bingbongbang23

Also, just again my personal view - when your spouse cheats its bad. If they've woken up feeling guilty / ashamed / suprised by their own actions and decide to do it again to me that's just beyond belief. This thread isn't about spouses, but I think doing it again is really, really bad.

OP posts:
5128gap · 21/09/2023 09:55

Kingofx · 20/09/2023 21:18

@5128gap

This is a really good example of the disproportionate blame/hate for the OW, that goes beyond a desire to merely acknowledge she is also wrong. It in the language. He, the cheating spouse is described in terms of the behaviour only, and in the mildest way possible "breaking his vows/promises" while she is condemned as being wholly worthless and repulsive - she is "a sack of shit".
Most of the people accused of defending the OW are simply pointing out that the level of vitriol directed at her is inappropriate to her level of culpability. Not that she is blameless

My personal take on this, I'd that people are struggling to understand the thread is about the OW.

If the thread was entitled "AIBU to think husbands who cheat are bad?"

Then you'd see replies calling them a vile sack of shit. As is what people are expecting are comments that aren't responding to the question

Your specific question was 'Do you think we give the OW too easy a ride?"
Some people have responded to say, no they don't think we do.
One of their reasons for that view is that the anger should be directed at the man. Its not possible to explain that without mentioning the man.
My point was that posts like the one I referenced are an excellent example of far from giving the OW an easy ride, there are people who direct a far higher level of anger towards her than they do to the cheat himself.
If you had wanted a thread for the sole purpose of condemning and name calling OW without the distraction of any reference to the cheating man, it would have been better to say so, as its very difficult to have a genuine discussion on the question you actually asked without mentioning him.

TickyTimeBomb · 21/09/2023 12:29

During an affair, there are two people who are in cahoots against one other person.

If in any area of life if there was bullying involving 2 against 1 it would be noted down as unfair, that is the pain of affairs, they are enduring and long lasting, unlike one night stands, being alienated and sidelined for months maybe years on end.

Your h, will have changed, towards you, he will detatch from you, maybe become cruel and heartless, neglectful, not fully present, and then when suspitions arise they will lie and gaslight you, every single day, morning, noon and night.

Have you any idea how that affects someone to have your reality denied, so women become hypervigilant, second guessing themselves, it's exhausting, so the betrayed spouses become consumed with uncertainty. The home, is no longer a home, a safe place where there was harmony and certainty, it becomes a battlefield of unkindness and fear.
It would be easier to have the ow traips through the home and actually see your rival, it's an unknown enemy waiting in the shadows ready to take you down and her ally is your husband, the person you felt you could feel safe with and trust, but now you have to be careful of what you say in case he relays it back to the rival. Paranoia rules.

Everything breaks down, all law and order of the house, appointments missed, work cancelled because you become too ill, children neglected, a million ways why the home turns to crap, you end up feeling like death, the depression, the anger, the pain, the unfairness of it and this just touches the surface, it's high octane pain on a lasting daily basis, on the other hand the rival is thriving, how wonderful for her.

And this is created by your h and his acomplice, this joint attack of destroying someone is premeditated, just because one of the players is sat in another home doesn't mean there is not engineering of the situation going on.

They are a pair, a couple, your enemies, your rivals, co-conspiritors, collaboraters, pick your words they ammount to the same, two people ganging up and unifying to destroy you in the most cruel way, just because an ow chooses to pretend she is not hurting someone by pulling the strings of hate in the background doesn't mean she is no less culpable.

Or if she is ignorant of the abuse it creates and the persecution of another female lone victim it is not the fault of the betrayed, I suggest you educate yourselves, and if you're unwilling to do that I can only hope exactly the same happens to you one day so you too can understand the pain.

By the way time doesn't make it go away, it does however make you stronger and realise there are some real fucked up nasty people on this planet who care for no one but themselves, there are also people at this very moment going through hell, it is for those victims who at the moment cannot function, that we write to protect, to tell them we understand, to not minimise their pain and to offer our support.

Support the ow if you must by stupid excuses, but you have to realise the victims who have been through this will always blame you and your male friend.

It makes absolutely no difference that one of them is married with a piece of paper, this marriage contract has nothing to do with two utterly evil people conspiring to victimise an innocent person.

@5128gap

Sorry I will never have any sympthy for abusers and both people are abusers, it's just that they both deny it, the gaslighting continues.

TickyTimeBomb · 21/09/2023 12:40

*Interesting post

As I said earlier, i betrayed my husband. I used the word affair, this was a ONS.

Do you not count them as the same?*

It's not in the same league, an affair consists of a sustained attack to conspire against an innocent person on a daily basis for weeks, months, years, it's pre meditated, with malice afore thought and intention.

A ONS may hurt like hell and may end your relationship but does not create the same damage as two enemies against you in a prolonged attack.

Dwappy · 21/09/2023 15:28

During an affair, there are two people who are in cahoots against one other person.

If in any area of life if there was bullying involving 2 against 1 it would be noted down as unfair, that is the pain of affairs, they are enduring and long lasting, unlike one night stands, being alienated and sidelined for months maybe years on end.

Your h, will have changed, towards you, he will detatch from you, maybe become cruel and heartless, neglectful, not fully present, and then when suspitions arise they will lie and gaslight you, every single day, morning, noon and night.

It's not really the same though as bullying. As you have rightly pointed out in the second paragraph it's the HUSBAND who is being cruel and neglectful. He's the one lying and gaslighting you. The OW is doing none of this.

If I was being bullied at work by another staff member and they were going home and slagging me off to their partner every night are they both bullying me? I don't know the partner. He might be at home imitating me. Talking about me. Laughing at me. Saying awful things about me. But he's not bullying me. I don't know him and he's not doing anything to me personally. They might both sit there and laugh at photos of me or what they consider stupid things I've done. But if only the staff member is doing bad things in person to me then they are the bully. Not their partner who I've never met. Even if the partner is telling the staff member what to say to me, its still the staff member who is doing it. The staff member could easily say no I'm not saying/ doing that.

lala66 · 21/09/2023 15:45

On mumsnet the OW may get the easier ride. In the ‘real’ world definitely not. In fact the woman is blamed just at much as the man, if not more so. In my experience men lie all the time in order to get what they want. Tell the OW they’re single or unhappy. Tell the wife they were ‘seduced’.

Bananananananananana · 21/09/2023 17:14

Dwappy · 21/09/2023 15:28

During an affair, there are two people who are in cahoots against one other person.

If in any area of life if there was bullying involving 2 against 1 it would be noted down as unfair, that is the pain of affairs, they are enduring and long lasting, unlike one night stands, being alienated and sidelined for months maybe years on end.

Your h, will have changed, towards you, he will detatch from you, maybe become cruel and heartless, neglectful, not fully present, and then when suspitions arise they will lie and gaslight you, every single day, morning, noon and night.

It's not really the same though as bullying. As you have rightly pointed out in the second paragraph it's the HUSBAND who is being cruel and neglectful. He's the one lying and gaslighting you. The OW is doing none of this.

If I was being bullied at work by another staff member and they were going home and slagging me off to their partner every night are they both bullying me? I don't know the partner. He might be at home imitating me. Talking about me. Laughing at me. Saying awful things about me. But he's not bullying me. I don't know him and he's not doing anything to me personally. They might both sit there and laugh at photos of me or what they consider stupid things I've done. But if only the staff member is doing bad things in person to me then they are the bully. Not their partner who I've never met. Even if the partner is telling the staff member what to say to me, its still the staff member who is doing it. The staff member could easily say no I'm not saying/ doing that.

Being an Ow or OM is the equivalent of laughing and egging on your friend, who is bullying someone else

Dwappy · 21/09/2023 17:18

Bananananananananana · 21/09/2023 17:14

Being an Ow or OM is the equivalent of laughing and egging on your friend, who is bullying someone else

Yes. And that's terrible behaviour. But they are not the bully. The bully is the person bullying me. Not the person I've never met and have no idea what they're saying. For all I know my work bully has told them I'm bullying them. Or that I've been really nasty. So they're responding to that. But while the partner may be a nasty person they are not bullying me.

Dwappy · 21/09/2023 17:23

For example. Say I have a friend (friend A). I have been friends with them for years and years. I really like them. And another friend/ work colleague (friend B) who has never met friend A starts encouraging me to be mean to them. Telling me to leave them out. Don't invite them places. Just spend time with them (B) instead. I can choose to go along with this. Or. Choose to say no. I like friend A very much. And i don't want to hurt them. If I choose to listen to friend B and exclude/ be mean to friend A I am bullying her. Friend B isn't. Friend B has done nothing to A. B is a nasty terrible person. But she's not the bully in that situation. I am.

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 17:39

It's not really the same though as bullying. As you have rightly pointed out in the second paragraph it's the HUSBAND who is being cruel and neglectful. He's the one lying and gaslighting you. The OW is doing none of this

He is the one doing it, and she is the team mate. They are in cahoots, as has been explained. She isn't just a witness, she is literally the person he is doing it with. Much like if your DH was stealing your money and poisoning you to death and she was the one taking your money and supplying the poison.

If I was being bullied at work by another staff member and they were going home and slagging me off to their partner every night are they both bullying me? I don't know the partner. He might be at home imitating me. Talking about me. Laughing at me. Saying awful things about me. But he's not bullying me. I don't know him and he's not doing anything to me personally. They might both sit there and laugh at photos of me or what they consider stupid things I've done. But if only the staff member is doing bad things in person to me then they are the bully. Not their partner who I've never met. Even if the partner is telling the staff member what to say to me, its still the staff member who is doing it. The staff member could easily say no I'm not saying/ doing that

This analogy doesn't work. As I said, she is not a witness. She is committing the acts herself that harm you.

OP posts:
namechangnancy · 21/09/2023 19:20

Look I have had this happen to myself personally I understand the pain.

I also know it can warp your sense perspective and that's not the cheater on spouses fault especially in the immediate aftermath. I wouldn't wish the pain and its consequences on anyone and I mean that truly.

But this thread has taken a odd turn.

No one has justified the OW/OM actions. No one has said it's morally a good thing and your anger isn't justified.

And although I recognise some of these comments are made by people in pain, some (and I say some - op this isn't at you ) of these also a bit out there.

People disagreeing with you aren't doing it to gaslight you or silence your emotions .They kindly disagreeing on certain elements that they don't agree with.

-Some people have discussed the level of blame and responsibility a OW should take.

  • some people have pointed out the emotive language toward OW and passive language of the cheating husband.
  • some the actual topic at hand because you can't discuss the OM/OW in term of blame without discussing the cheating spouse.

Re the OW/OW bullying the spouse, that is a very specific circumstance. In truth both the cheating spouse and the OW/OM rarely think about the spouse at all. If they did I doubt the cheating would happen.

Turning it into they make the wife/spouse being cheated on a hot topic between the pair seemly unlikely (unless a v particular set of circumstances). In my experience I was very much a not even talked about subject.

The humiliation I felt, the paranoia and gaslighting certainly happened and was real but that came from my (now ex husband) actions. Many spouses don't get to meet this other women or be privy to the chats that went between him and her.

I know when this has just happened I would have happily believed that I was centre stage in their chats. But bar them planning for logistics of their meet ups and I wasn't. That's a worse betrayal imo because his energy and focus that should have been on me and our family was on her. And not on me. And that change on focus was him choosing her and not me.

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 19:28

@namechanging1212

I don't think it's fair to imply people have a "warped sense of perspective" just because they don't agree with your take.

This thread has been completely full of lots of people justifying the OW.

Many people have said:

"If not her would have been someone else"
or
"the OW owes you nothing".

The post literally above yours describes the OW as an observer of someone doing wrong, rather than even being an active participant.

There's even posts I have read on here calling wives "hateful" or "dehumanising" to the people who committed these horrible acts against them.

Maybe people can disagree with you completely without that meaning they have "warped" thinking because something has hurt them,

Maybe it's more that they have seen the damage these acts make, so they think they are foul.

For example: my son experienced bullying in school. Therefore I am an extremely big advocate for anti-bullying. Whereas others might see it as "horseplay" or "just part of growing up", I think it is truly fucking evil because I have seen the pain it caused.

This doesn't mean my thinking, or the thinking of other victims is "warped".

Actually I think it might mean maybe others haven't fully engaged empathetically with the real world consequences of our actions from one human to another.

OP posts:
namechangnancy · 21/09/2023 20:05

@Kingofx the problem is that's your opinion of what's been stated by others. Not fact.

You can pick snippets out of what you want that suits your narrative but when people read the entirety of what's posted they can make their own choices.

You complain about people mentioning the cheating husband and he shouldn't be mentioned, only the OW should be the sole focus and then say people censoring you when they disagree with you. Don't you realise hypocritical that is ? You posted aibu and expected a echo chamber 🤯

I have happen to me, by my ex but because I don't agree that "my poor misguided ex got lured by the evil ow" and I place the ultimate blame with him that some how my opinion is invalid.

I can see my ex was human and made mistakes, and I can see the ow was also human and made mistakes. I don't need to demonise one to empathise with the other and smile and wave as I eject both from my life .

But as I said he was married to me. He was the one who lied to my face repeatedly and she didn't know me, in my head ultimately he have gave a shiny shit more about me than I expect a stranger to do.

You talk of empathy but only to those who agree with you. I got out of that trauma circle a while back. I hope you find the peace you seek ✌🏻

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 21:23

@NeedToChangeName

Me posting actual words people have said is fact and not my opinion.

I have never said not to mention husbands, others have.

(I have just said the thread isn't meant to be about husbands (which it isn't) as a response to false accusation that no blame is directed at the husband)

I have never said people are censoring me.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, actually I have enjoyed the conversation and debate and have said that several times actually.

I fully expected a lively debate on this issue, which was the point.

I am enjoying the discussion...not sure why you feel I am not? Maybe some people feel the need for others to agree with them but I really don't mind as long as they don't post inaccurate facts and misquote me.

OP posts:
Dwappy · 21/09/2023 21:53

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 21:23

@NeedToChangeName

Me posting actual words people have said is fact and not my opinion.

I have never said not to mention husbands, others have.

(I have just said the thread isn't meant to be about husbands (which it isn't) as a response to false accusation that no blame is directed at the husband)

I have never said people are censoring me.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, actually I have enjoyed the conversation and debate and have said that several times actually.

I fully expected a lively debate on this issue, which was the point.

I am enjoying the discussion...not sure why you feel I am not? Maybe some people feel the need for others to agree with them but I really don't mind as long as they don't post inaccurate facts and misquote me.

One of the actual words you mentioned was mine. And you have kind of taken them out of context to reinforce your opinion I'm wrong.
I never said the OW was just observing. She obviously is participating in something. But we disagree on what. She's participating in a relationship with someone she probably shouldn't be. However I do not believe she is doing anything against you (general you - the wives). The thread is about whether the OW is to blame in any way. I still do not think that.
I know you don't think my bullying analogy works, but for me the thought process is the same. Friend B is not participating in bullying. They are participating in being nasty WITH another person. Not TO another person. They are not to blame for what the bully says or does even if they encourage it from afar.

Ps- i am also very much enjoying the debate. I like hearing other opinions even if i do not agree.

LolaSmiles · 21/09/2023 22:13

Ps- i am also very much enjoying the debate. I like hearing other opinions even if i do not agree.
It makes for interesting reading certainly.

It seems to highlight why the "I trust my wife/husband... but I don't trust their colleague/friend/gym buddy etc" is strong. It seems there is a mentality out there where some people really believe the whole world is out to shag their spouse.

It makes me wonder how much of how people view others offers a window to their own insecurities, feelings, relationship experiences.
eg the men who police their partners because they trust her but don't like the other guy are judging the man by their own standards, and know they'd shag outside the relationship given half the chance.
Eg. The women who trust their husband, he's amazing, would never want an affair, but they don't trust other women, probably have some doubts somewhere about their husband but it's easier to bury them so it's easier to focus on women as a potential risk to the marriage, rather than their husband's decision to cheat in future

Kingofx · 21/09/2023 23:26

@Dwappy

Here's what you said

"If I was being bullied at work by another staff member and they were going home and slagging me off to their partner every night are they both bullying me? I don't know the partner. He might be at home imitating me. Talking about me. Laughing at me. Saying awful things about me. But he's not bullying me"

This is how I characterised that:

"The post literally above yours describes the OW as an observer of someone doing wrong, rather than even being an active participant"

I am sorry if that's not what you meant but it very much sounded to me like that was what you are saying.

I disagree because the affair partner is actively engaging in actions that are causing harm, they are not a bystander.

OP posts:
Kingofx · 21/09/2023 23:32

@Dwappy

However I do not believe she is doing anything against you (general you - the wives). The thread is about whether the OW is to blame in any way. I still do not think that

That's cool, we have different life philosophies :)

OP posts:
XenoBitch · 21/09/2023 23:33

Thank you for your post @TickyTimeBomb it gave me chills. How you described an affair was exactly how it was for me... and it fucked up my life for years.
OW knew about me from the get go. She could have and should have walked away... but no... she thought she was entitled to my DP.

MidnightMeltdown · 21/09/2023 23:34

This reminds be a bit of the Monica Lewinsky case. I was a young child when this happened, but from what I've heard, she was very much blamed and demonised by everyone at the time.

Given that she was 22 and he was 49, I find this mentality absolutely astonishing. I think that historically, there has always been a disproportionate amount of blame placed in the OW. It stems from the age old idea that women are evil temptresses who seduce poor unsuspecting males. I don't buy into this at all. 100% of the blame should be placed onto person who cheated on you.

The role of the OW isn't relevant at all. Maybe she did wrong, maybe she was a victim, it doesn't really matter. It's just a way for men to deflect the blame away for themselves. I also think that wives often find it easier to direct their anger towards OW because part of them is still in love with their cheating husbands and it's easier for them to blame a third party.

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