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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

898 replies

Kingofx · 17/09/2023 11:59

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 20/09/2023 06:56

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia
I don't have contempt for women or women in STEM.
I totally agree with you.

That example you've quoted from my post was part of my list of misogynistic attitudes throughout this thread. It's one of many ways that some women on this thread seem to want to blame other women for their husband's infidelity.

bingbongbang23 · 20/09/2023 07:05

November2024Mummy · 19/09/2023 23:19

This list presupposes that the wife is sympathetic to the man that ruined her future. Most women are angry at their husband

The he thing about being an OW is, that chanting about how you owe nothing and you didn't make the vows, doesn't inspire any kind of empathy from anyone. It automatically puts people on guard and makes you look like an arse.

If I was cheated on, and the OW was trotting out lines like 'there must be something wrong with your marriage, not my problem, don't care', I'd would bloody well dislike her.

OW are to blame for their actions. OW need to own up and stop the petulant attitude whilst expecting to not be disliked. Personally, I have nothing against people who hold their hands up and say 'it wasn't right, and I know I contributed to the pain caused'. We all make mistakes, we all can be tempted and do things we know are not great.

I agree with this.

As I said below, I accept I made shitty decisions and hurt an innocent woman in the fall out. She absolutely deserves to not like me and be angry at me.

The difference I will always find odd is that all anger is on me and none on her ex-husband. Seemingly he was perfect and it was all down to me. I was then harassed, and not in a small way. Stalking, threatening behaviour, bringing my children into it, my work. I will forever say my behaviour was wrong, but her behaviour was just as bad. However as she was the wronged woman she will never accept that. Her hatred of me flicked a switch in her that was terrifying. Anyone who threatens a child is not stable. And I personally will never forgive her for her actions

Agix · 20/09/2023 07:54

I've been cheated on before. I don't blame the other woman at all. I don't think anything of them. I probably would judge them if they were in another relationship themselves at the time, if they were a cheat too, but if they're single then they're free to mingle.

If they wanna try and mingle with my partner, go for it. They made me no promises at all - only he did. Its up to him to say no, which he is perfectly capable of doing. He doesn't have to cheat no matter how sexy and seductive someone is. It's entirely up to him to say no, entirely. She can do what she likes. If she tries and gets him, she's probably done me a favour - if a man wants to cheat at all, he will seek it and initiate it eventually. I mean, I'd wonder why she'd be happy with a known cheater, but whatever.

I'd feel differently if the OW was a friend or otherwise close to me in some way, and there was supposed to be some implied loyalty to me there. That would be a double whammy of betrayal. Someone who doesn't know me? Not at all. Can do what they like

If OW was directly cruel to me about it after, I'd of course blame her for unnecessary cruelty.. but not for my partner choosing of his free will to cheat. Thats solely on him.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/09/2023 07:56

LolaSmiles · 20/09/2023 06:56

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia
I don't have contempt for women or women in STEM.
I totally agree with you.

That example you've quoted from my post was part of my list of misogynistic attitudes throughout this thread. It's one of many ways that some women on this thread seem to want to blame other women for their husband's infidelity.

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I meant the plural you and it was directed at the other people on this thread.

I'm done with this thread. The OP asked "AIBU" and then didn't like being told "YABU", which defeats the point of an AIBU thread. There's a fundamental values mismatch between me and many on this thread, where you expect a total stranger to care as least as much as if not more than a husband about upholding the marriage vows that he made, and I can't fathom burdening a third-party with that when in most cases the husband is actively seeking to play away. We aren't going to change each other's minds on that so I'm going to focus on the STEM career I've worked hard on instead of pissing away my time on this thread.

Somewhereovertherainbowweighapie · 20/09/2023 08:40

@bingbongbang23 Maybe you made her unstable. You can’t put someone through hell and get upset with they return the favour. Actions have consequences. Obviously no one should threaten someone’s kids. But you are the one that put them in harm’s way. You are lucky it wasn’t worse.

naxos · 20/09/2023 08:56

I think a lot of it comes down to how you define blame.

I have been cheated on. In one scenario, the other woman didn't know I existed. I felt resentment towards her because - however unknowingly - her actions had caused me pain, but I didn't hate her, or blame her. In the other scenario, the other woman knew full well I existed - we'd met, she'd been nice to me to my face, interacted with me while I was with my ex. I will happily admit to hating her. No, she didn't make any vows to me, but I don't make any vows to not, I don't know, slap my neighbour in the face for waking me up taking her bins out. The sole fact that you haven't made any vows to someone is a pretty poor excuse to cling on to to justify behaving badly towards them. It's not misogyny to hate someone who contributed (yes, not single-handedly) to hurting you. Not every OW is a fragile, feeble younger woman, or abused wife desperately seeking sanctuary in the arms of someone else's partner (not that that makes their behaviour any better).

My feelings about either of those women don't negate or in any way lessen the blame, loathing and hatred I had towards my then-partner who cheated on me. Yes, he should have been committed enough to our relationship to not cheat on me whatever the temptation might have been (and our relationship wasn't - as far as I was aware - unhappy, I wasn't a bad partner, or any of the other explanations people seem to give to give the poor little APs an out).

I just find the predictable 'oh OP it's not about the OW at all, she didn't make any vows to you' incredibly infantilising - sure, they don't owe you anything, but people's actions also have consequences and if fucking someone else's partner is an action you choose to take, then grow some balls and accept a likely consequence will be someone hating you in return. After all, I didn't make any vows not to hate you. Of course some women will forgive their partner and not the OW - love and relationships aren't logical (isn't this what so many cheating partners claim when they get found out?), and I can understand why someone might find it easier to hate someone they had no shared history with over a partner who they'd loved, no matter how bad their behaviour was.

anomaly2 · 20/09/2023 09:07

Somewhereovertherainbowweighapie · 20/09/2023 08:40

@bingbongbang23 Maybe you made her unstable. You can’t put someone through hell and get upset with they return the favour. Actions have consequences. Obviously no one should threaten someone’s kids. But you are the one that put them in harm’s way. You are lucky it wasn’t worse.

No. No one is responsible for harassing someone else but the harasser. One doesn't make someone unhinged any more than a wife makes her husband have an affair. I take it you wouldn't tell a cheated upon spouse that their actions made their spouse have an affair

jannier · 20/09/2023 09:13

To me blaming the ow seems an attempt to remove responsibility from the man as if he has no control. Yes it's wrong to target a married person but at the end of the day that person should be responsible for saying not interested.

Somewhereovertherainbowweighapie · 20/09/2023 09:19

@anomaly2 Actions have consequences. What did she think was going to happen, maybe the wife might ask her over for a coffee to discuss how he likes a bj? Your actions are on you, but dont mess with someone’s life then complain when they do it back to you.

BIossomtoes · 20/09/2023 09:52

To me blaming the ow seems an attempt to remove responsibility from the man as if he has no control.

There isn’t a finite amount of blame and it’s not either one or the other. They’re both participants and both to blame.

boromu222 · 20/09/2023 10:02

jannier · 20/09/2023 09:13

To me blaming the ow seems an attempt to remove responsibility from the man as if he has no control. Yes it's wrong to target a married person but at the end of the day that person should be responsible for saying not interested.

Might seem that way if you hadn't bothered to RTFT and find out what we are actually talking about.

Really can't be bothered explaining yet again that this thread is about the women, not the men. m

Dwappy · 20/09/2023 10:18

naxos · 20/09/2023 08:56

I think a lot of it comes down to how you define blame.

I have been cheated on. In one scenario, the other woman didn't know I existed. I felt resentment towards her because - however unknowingly - her actions had caused me pain, but I didn't hate her, or blame her. In the other scenario, the other woman knew full well I existed - we'd met, she'd been nice to me to my face, interacted with me while I was with my ex. I will happily admit to hating her. No, she didn't make any vows to me, but I don't make any vows to not, I don't know, slap my neighbour in the face for waking me up taking her bins out. The sole fact that you haven't made any vows to someone is a pretty poor excuse to cling on to to justify behaving badly towards them. It's not misogyny to hate someone who contributed (yes, not single-handedly) to hurting you. Not every OW is a fragile, feeble younger woman, or abused wife desperately seeking sanctuary in the arms of someone else's partner (not that that makes their behaviour any better).

My feelings about either of those women don't negate or in any way lessen the blame, loathing and hatred I had towards my then-partner who cheated on me. Yes, he should have been committed enough to our relationship to not cheat on me whatever the temptation might have been (and our relationship wasn't - as far as I was aware - unhappy, I wasn't a bad partner, or any of the other explanations people seem to give to give the poor little APs an out).

I just find the predictable 'oh OP it's not about the OW at all, she didn't make any vows to you' incredibly infantilising - sure, they don't owe you anything, but people's actions also have consequences and if fucking someone else's partner is an action you choose to take, then grow some balls and accept a likely consequence will be someone hating you in return. After all, I didn't make any vows not to hate you. Of course some women will forgive their partner and not the OW - love and relationships aren't logical (isn't this what so many cheating partners claim when they get found out?), and I can understand why someone might find it easier to hate someone they had no shared history with over a partner who they'd loved, no matter how bad their behaviour was.

Hate isn't the same as blame though. I think it's fully understandable to hate the OW. You can be disgusted in her. Hate her. Think she's an awful person. Think she has no morals. All of these things. But to BLAME her for splitting up a family I don't agree with. Someone upthread said about how they wanted to tell an OW how they were responsible for splitting up a family. I don't agree she was responsible. The cheating husband was responsible for that. Nothing that woman did should have had any affect on the family. If she was bothering him he should have just reported her. Whether that was to a work boss/HR/police. The answer isn't to sleep with her.
Maybe she was a terrible terrible person with no morals who actively made a play for the man. But he can ALWAYS SAY NO. That's why I will never agree the woman is actually RESPONSIBLE for breaking up a marriage that she had nothing to do with in the first place.

Kingofx · 20/09/2023 10:23

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I'm done with this thread. The OP asked "AIBU" and then didn't like being told "YABU", which defeats the point of an AIBU thread

Vast majority said YANBU.

I've found the defences of OW genuinely fascinating

OP posts:
November2024Mummy · 20/09/2023 10:30

Hate isn't the same as blame though. I think it's fully understandable to hate the OW. You can be disgusted in her. Hate her. Think she's an awful person. Think she has no morals. All of these things. But to BLAME her for splitting up a family I don't agree with.

If I don't want to be BLAMED keep it in your pants! You control how other people feel about you. They can blame you to the cows come home.

November2024Mummy · 20/09/2023 10:33

You can't sleep with someone's partner, causing them extensive distress and damage to their self worth, and them complain that they blame you. Oh my god. Just no.

5128gap · 20/09/2023 11:05

Kingofx · 19/09/2023 20:27

I suppose when mem who've been cheated on are angry and insulting about the OM its misogyny too. Rather than just perfectly justified thoughts and feeling towards the arsehole that just shagged his spouse.

No idea how to do emoticons but I'm definitely rolling my eyes.

Of course it isn't. Misogyny is hatred of women, so directing anger at another man couldn't possibly meet the definition. However, men whose wives have affairs will typically direct most of their anger to the woman anyway, (to the point of violence and even murder in some cases) due to the belief that other men will try it, and its up to the woman to refuse. So I suppose misogyny will factor to an extent.
The misogyny referred to here is the deeply rooted tendancy to treat women far more harshly than men when wrong doing occurs. To expect them to adhere to higher standards of behaviour than men. The myths of the predatory women and the good man she apparently leads astray. The dilution of blame for men's wrong doing by the insistence that a woman must share it equally with him. Its not enough to agree women who have affairs are wrong. The misogyny requires them to be viewed as equally if not more wrong than the men lying and breaking their vows.
As for OW being misogynist, as you suggest in your later post, there may be some cases where internalised misogyny plays a part, manifesting in the desire to compete with another woman for a man. But in most cases, the OW is not motivated by hatred for the spouse, who is likely fairly irrelevant to her. An obstacle, an irritant, even an object of pity, but largely peripheral, and hatred of her will not the reason she sleeps with her husband.

LolaSmiles · 20/09/2023 11:27

It's not misogyny to hate someone who contributed (yes, not single-handedly) to hurting you. Not every OW is a fragile, feeble younger woman, or abused wife desperately seeking sanctuary in the arms of someone else's partner (not that that makes their behaviour any better).
You're right. It is not misogyny to hate a woman whose actions are awful.

What is misogynistic is the insistance from some people that she shares the blame for the man's actions.

This poster sums it up nicely:
The misogyny referred to here is the deeply rooted tendancy to treat women far more harshly than men when wrong doing occurs. To expect them to adhere to higher standards of behaviour than men. The myths of the predatory women and the good man she apparently leads astray. The dilution of blame for men's wrong doing by the insistence that a woman must share it equally with him. Its not enough to agree women who have affairs are wrong. The misogyny requires them to be viewed as equally if not more wrong than the men lying and breaking their vows.

It's entirely understandable to hate and feel anger towards a woman who sleeps with your husband. That's obvious. Very few people say otherwise.

What's unreasonable is people keep pushing the narrative of the good man, amazing husband, happy marriage, he never wanted an affair... then the other woman lured him away, stole him, she turned his head and by the time she's turned his head he's only human and flawed so an affair happened. The husband had a moment of weakness because the OW laughed at his jokes and he couldn't help go home fantasising about having sex with her (implication being that the woman is responsible for the man going home and thinking sexual thoughts, because if she'd just conducted herself better then he'd still be the doting husband).Same as holding the other woman equally to blame for the affair when really whether an affair happens or doesn't is 100% down to whether the married spouse chooses to cheat.

boromu222 · 20/09/2023 11:37

The misogyny here is y'all keep inisisting on talking about men in this thread specifically by a woman about other women.

Whats up with that?

Superlegs · 20/09/2023 11:46

boromu222 · 20/09/2023 11:37

The misogyny here is y'all keep inisisting on talking about men in this thread specifically by a woman about other women.

Whats up with that?

Who do you suggest they place the blame on if you don’t agree that the ow is responsible for upholding the marriage vows ?

LolaSmiles · 20/09/2023 11:49

The misogyny here is y'all keep inisisting on talking about men in this thread specifically by a woman about other women.

Whats up with that?
Disagreeing with blaming women for male behaviour is not being misogynistic.

Holding women responsible for their actions is reasonable.
Having strong feelings of hurt and anger towards a woman whose actions have been hurtful is reasonable.
Blaming women for male behaviour is not acceptable to many women.

Let's be real. Some posters on this thread have gone as far as to say women are equally to blame for male behaviour because if she laughs at jokes or is a bit friendly with a man then he might go home and think sexy thoughts. That women's behaviour might turn a man's head, which yet again blames a woman for male behaviour.

If what you want is "here's a thread where we sit in a circle and kid ourselves that women are equally to blame for our husband's shitty decision to seek sex outside our marriage" then people need to own it and own the fact that believe the first rule of misogyny that women are responsible for men's behaviour.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 20/09/2023 11:51

To me it’ll depend partly on what happened at the start. Did the man tell the woman that he and his wife were already separated or about to be so, or were going to be divorced? It’s hardly unknown.

OTOH, if the OW later found out that he’d been telling blatant lies, then I’d blame her for not ending it. Though having said that, a friend of mine was strung along for many years - he was always going to leave his wife after Christmas/after the summer holidays/after the kids had done their GCSEs, etc.
And she so badly wanted to believe it.

Superlegs · 20/09/2023 11:55

You’ve gotta laugh at the idea that all these ow are man hungry sirens that are luring hapless married men away from their doting wives.
I don’t particularly like the statement that ‘she didn’t make the vows’ because it makes the ow sound as if she is selfishly pursuing her own pleasure at the expense of someone’s family, when in reality the majority of ow are chronically insecure and have been fed a pack of lies by a lying letch. No married man ever was truthful that they just fancied a shag.
There is even an ow on here that people are referring to therapy, emotionally healthy and mature women don’t fall for the ‘my wife doesn’t understand me’ bs.
It’s a no brainer why men have affairs with younger women, women their own age aren’t daft enough to believe them. Such a cop out blaming ow women for the actions of an unfaithful partner.

5128gap · 20/09/2023 11:59

boromu222 · 20/09/2023 11:37

The misogyny here is y'all keep inisisting on talking about men in this thread specifically by a woman about other women.

Whats up with that?

Well obviously we are discussing men. The thread is about bad behaviour in which a man plays the leading role. I'm sure it would be very convenient in some quarters were we to write men out entirely, or down grade them to a passive objects to be stolen, and view affairs as a woman on woman 'crime'. But that isn't the way it is.

LolaSmiles · 20/09/2023 12:02

Superlegs
I agree with you.

I suspect many OW are a mixture of insecure women who fall for the script from men who want their cake and eat it too (you know the type my wife doesn't get me, you understand, we're in a sexless marriage, together for the children... you're different and we just connect 🤢), young/naive women who are easily targeted by senior and older male colleagues (more script but with the added difference in authority dynamic and I suspect these men will rotate through their bits on the side regularly), women who are only looking for something casual and have decided that they're happy to abandon a moral compass, women equally in an unfulfilling relationship and they find someone they like but instead of them both doing the right thing they have an affair, and there's some who probably do enjoy doing the coy "pick me" dance and enjoy playing with fire with the giggles and "can you believe someone thought me and Simon had chemistry".

The behaviour of choosing to get involved with a married man is awful and I'll not excuse it, but I don't buy the idea that all these cheating husbands are gorgeous sex gods with women falling at their feet.

I'm just very against the idea that all these men are devoted husbands, amazing lovers, awesome family guys until the evil temptress smiles at him and lures him away.

TickyTimeBomb · 20/09/2023 12:27

However, men whose wives have affairs will typically direct most of
their anger to the woman anyway, (to the point of violence and even
murder in some cases) due to the belief that other men will try it, and
its up to the woman to refuse. So I suppose misogyny will factor to an
extent.

I don't agree, the majority of women I've known who have had affairs either have cuckholds as husbands who are willing to forgive, or they have alpha males who inflict punishment on the om.
In my case the ow's husband had my h beaten up, he was a wealthy man who's pride had been hurt, believe me he hated my h.

The misogyny requires them to be viewed as equally if not more wrong than the men lying and breaking their vows.

Again I disagree, men will blame om and women will blame ow. Younger alpha men talk of the bro code and run in packs, if someone is known to have hurt their friends, they exact punishment. Younger women also have each others backs when infedelity is found out within their circles.

Marriage and later years with children throw a different sphere of support, extended families and children will actively hate the ow or om, both sexes are hated.

As for OW being misogynist, as you suggest in your later post, there may
be some cases where internalised misogyny plays a part, manifesting in
the desire to compete with another woman for a man. But in most cases,
the OW is not motivated by hatred for the spouse, who is likely fairly
irrelevant to her.

I suppose I agree partially with this, but in many cases I would say a wife is known to the ow, be it personally of just by hearsay, they will amass information about the wife, social media, from friends of the couple, colleauges of the lover, it's usually a capaign of information to possition themselves effectively. I agree, they don't give a fuck about how the wife feels, there seems to be a lack of empathy which enables them to switch off for their own selfish wants, just as the men do.

Neither one of their actions of ignoring the pain and suffering of others is a polite thing to do.

I have empathy, I wouldn't intentionally harm someone even if I didn't know them personally, would you ?

All this crap really about women just enjoying sex for the sex of it like men, I personally think is rubbish, no matter what sphere or situation, if a woman is willing to have an affair then she has thought about making a new choice for herself, a different life, an exit, a better financial possition, a fitter body to gaze at, a stronger male for genetic reproduction, someone to emotionally allow her precedence and priority, a rise in status.
More so than a man who are fully capable of having an affair and dumping them.

Women very much think of their advantages more than men I would say, and I would say women's desire is far more pre meditated than mens.

Women think more carefully about their sexual partners than men do, I suppose that's what hurts, the vetting process that wives used to father their children is being played out by another woman but on someone who already has children and a family, namely their husband, it makes no sense to many women that another woman could be happy to contribute to a family break up.

To me he would be seen as faulty male, a poor specimen, not something to fight over, a defunked man who has failed in the upbringing of his children and ruined their success to thrive.

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