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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW

898 replies

Kingofx · 17/09/2023 11:59

I see so many infidelity posts on here with replies saying "don't blame the OW, blame your spouse"

I agree, the spouse is the one who broke their contract and their choices are to blame, but if the OW knew the man was married and persued the situation - even going as far as to battle for someone else's spouse- then I think they are a shit person.

I've been a member of an infidelity support group and while full of stories of weal, deceitful, pathetic excuses for husbands - the stories are also full of quite cruel OW.

People with no empathy, who will often harass the wife, refuse to accept NC and generally act with malice.

I can't picture taking someone else's wallet much less their husband. I think the OW is an adult in these situations and completely deserves contempt.

AIBU to think we give the OW too easy a ride?

OP posts:
VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 11:40

November2024Mummy · 19/09/2023 11:33

I find it baffling how some (in this case) women refuse to accept any kind of fault. It's truly amazing. And then we go straight to the misogyny wild card.

Can anybody please answer why women cannot accept some responsibility for poor behaviour?

My DH could have an affair. I could cheat on him. We're all fallible. But I would never pretend I've done nothing wrong, sitting there going on about misogyny after shagging someone's spouse Confused

Because poor behaviour does not equate to being to blame for something.

The actions of an OW who knows that the man is married are poor behaviour that violate social norms, but they don't make her to blame for the man's decision to violate his wedding vows and betray his wife.

ASCCM · 19/09/2023 11:42

Somewhereovertherainbowweighapie · 19/09/2023 11:40

@ASCCM She had a long term affair with a married man. She was happy to take part in what destroyed a good friend of mine for many years. She left underwear, make up, moved things around for years while her husband denied anything was going on. There is no room in my life for someone like that. So yes, I was happy to be horrible. It might not bother you, but it bothered me. I held her accountable for her actions, the same as I held him accountable.

Actions have consequences.

Did she know he was married?

BIossomtoes · 19/09/2023 11:43

they don't make her to blame for the man's decision

Half the blame is definitely hers. He couldn’t do it by himself.

Kingofx · 19/09/2023 11:44

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia this is how Wikipedia defines "blame"

Blame is the act of censuring, holding responsible, or making negative statements about an individual or group that their actions or inaction are socially or morally irresponsible, the opposite of praise. When someone is morally responsible for doing something wrong, their action is blameworthy.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 19/09/2023 11:49

Half the blame is definitely hers. He couldn’t do it by himself.
Nope.
The other woman is 100% responsible for HER ACTIONS. Her actions might be anything from the naive, selectively naive, stupid, arrogant, driven by low self esteem herself, or downright calculating in her pursuit of a married man, but she is still responsible for her actions.

She is not responsible for the actions of a married man, which is why all the "OW stole/lured/tempted/knabbed..." rhetoric falls down quite quickly.

Same for the idea that she's half to blame for the affair. She isn't half to blame. The decision to have an affair is 100% the married spouse who chooses to look for sex outside their marriage.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 11:51

BIossomtoes · 19/09/2023 11:43

they don't make her to blame for the man's decision

Half the blame is definitely hers. He couldn’t do it by himself.

"I know a girl that lives on a hill, if she won't do it, her sister will".

He'd find another affair partner. He'd even pay for a prostitute. She's not the violator of marriage vows.

November2024Mummy · 19/09/2023 12:00

"I know a girl that lives on a hill, if she won't do it, her sister will".

Could make this same argument for a hitman. Or someone who steals a wallet rather than handing it in. Doesn't mean the person is not responsible for his own role.

FSTraining · 19/09/2023 12:01

LolaSmiles · 19/09/2023 11:49

Half the blame is definitely hers. He couldn’t do it by himself.
Nope.
The other woman is 100% responsible for HER ACTIONS. Her actions might be anything from the naive, selectively naive, stupid, arrogant, driven by low self esteem herself, or downright calculating in her pursuit of a married man, but she is still responsible for her actions.

She is not responsible for the actions of a married man, which is why all the "OW stole/lured/tempted/knabbed..." rhetoric falls down quite quickly.

Same for the idea that she's half to blame for the affair. She isn't half to blame. The decision to have an affair is 100% the married spouse who chooses to look for sex outside their marriage.

I think it depends. If someone naively falls for a married person that is one thing. Going on a site specifically for affairs looking for hookups is quite another. In that case there must be equal blame because that person deliberately went looking for someone else that was married or in a long term relationship.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 12:02

Kingofx · 19/09/2023 11:44

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia this is how Wikipedia defines "blame"

Blame is the act of censuring, holding responsible, or making negative statements about an individual or group that their actions or inaction are socially or morally irresponsible, the opposite of praise. When someone is morally responsible for doing something wrong, their action is blameworthy.

You consider Wikipedia a reliable source? That's laughably naïve. I could edit that entire page to read "potato potato potato", as could anyone else on earth with an internet connection.

A real dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/blame

Two verb definitions:

"to say or think that someone or something did something wrong or is responsible for something bad happening"

"to make someone or something responsible for something"

Do you see that word responsible in both definitions?

The OW is not responsible for a husband's decision to break his marriage vows. She has violated social norms, she may have betrayed friendship with the wife, but she is not responsible for an adult man's decisions.

blame

1. to say or think that someone or something did something wrong or is…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/blame

boromu222 · 19/09/2023 12:07

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 12:02

You consider Wikipedia a reliable source? That's laughably naïve. I could edit that entire page to read "potato potato potato", as could anyone else on earth with an internet connection.

A real dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/blame

Two verb definitions:

"to say or think that someone or something did something wrong or is responsible for something bad happening"

"to make someone or something responsible for something"

Do you see that word responsible in both definitions?

The OW is not responsible for a husband's decision to break his marriage vows. She has violated social norms, she may have betrayed friendship with the wife, but she is not responsible for an adult man's decisions.

You're laughably naive, thats not at all how wikipedia works. It's a highly reliable source in fact.

The OW is not responsible for an adult mans actions, and if you can point out where anyone said she was, I'd like to see that. She is responsible for her own actions. And can be hated and blamed for HER actions, if people want to.

Kingofx · 19/09/2023 12:08

Very few human beings are completely fine. Most have weaknesses, childhood shit, insecurities, general flaws.

Marriages, likewise, are not bomb proof. It's work, there are ups and downs and we can really love our spouse but still have all sorts of things going on.

So imagine I got dressed up right now and headed to my local pub. Let's say I find one of the school dads and I flirt with him.

Let's say I laugh at his jokes. Let's say I hold eye contact a bit too long. Let's say I flirt, and make myself appealing.

Sure, there's a chunk of men who wouldn't feel anything. There's also a chunk of men who'd instantly be texting me. But most men are human and would fall somewhere in the middle.

They might start wondering what it might feel like to go to bed with me but dismiss the thought quite quickly. They might even be a bit stiff with me or avoid me.

But let's say we're thrown together unavoidably. Like I get a job where we have to work closely together. And Let's say I give him lots of attention, maybe drifting into emotional support.

He loves his wife, so he will tell himself its no problem. You can be friends with the opposite sex, right? And he decides he's a good guy so it's fine. Be mates.

Let's say I then approach him again on a work away day, again, lots of deep eye contact and flirting. And despite himself he finds himself getting turned on and wondering what it might be like to take me to bed.

At this point...the man is already probably fantasising about me in the shower, and he has a bond with me on an emotional level. Let's say this makes him a bit less interested in his wife - because that feeling, those endorphins feel quite electric.

He loves his wife. He doesn't want an affair. But now he can't stop thinking about me - about how I make him feel. The way I listen to him and hang on his every word. The way we're such good friends. The way I pay him all that attention while his wife is (as a PP said, at home, frazzled and dealing with laundry).

At this point infidelity has happened already and where it goes from there sort of doesn't matter as the marriage is now in peril of a sort.

He's not a "bad man. He isn't in an unhappy marriage. He's just a human being with all the flaws of most responding to a biological and psychological dance of courtship.

If he's a man with great emotional skills and high self esteem, he might ask for a job transfer or otherwise take steps to nip it in the bud.

If he's not (and many people aren't) factors like low self esteem, poor coping mechanisms and so on might lead him to bad choices that might really devastate an otherwise happy home.

This is quite often the anatomy of an affair. Two people who engage in bad choices because something feels nice and they continue with it.

The married person is obviously responsible for the betrayal and their own decisions. But as my OP said, if the OW knows the man is married and has gone after him, then she's also got a portion of blame here.

Marriage isn't meant to be a gauntlet. You're not supposed to see your spouse off in the morning while they valiantly fight off people trying to shag them like space invaders.

It's simply meant to be the case that if people are married - you leave them alone and set your sights on available partners for yourself.

As others have said, it is just not that hard, and if we choose knowingly not to do that, then we are also responsible.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 19/09/2023 12:14

I think it depends. If someone naively falls for a married person that is one thing. Going on a site specifically for affairs looking for hookups is quite another. In that case there must be equal blame because that person deliberately went looking for someone else that was married or in a long term relationship
I see what you mean, but I still would say that the OW is only responsible for her behaviour and actions.

In the situation you outlined, OW is responsible for looking for a hook up, she is responsible for any messages she sent to a married man, and she's responsible for sleeping with him. Her actions are morally wrong and it's totally reasonable that people will criticise her behaviour.

She is not equally to blame for an affair. The married person is 100% responsible for the affair that they chose to have. They are the one who chose to break their vows.

What bothers me on this thread is that the OW is routinely being held responsible for the actions of an unfaithful spouse. She's either half to blame for an affair, she's lured him away from his wife, she's knabbed him from his family, she's stolen him etc etc. He has his head turned by the other woman. He ends up interested in the OW because the other woman makes herself available.

One of the first rules of misogyny is the claim that women are responsible for men's behaviour.

LolaSmiles · 19/09/2023 12:21

Kingofx
Cross posted with your scenario OP.

It's full of oh he is a great man, loves his wife, couldn't help it, isn't a bad man, has a happy marriage. If he's got good emotional intelligence then he might shut it down but humans are flawed so somehow an affair happened.

You're right here though:
This is quite often the anatomy of an affair. Two people who engage in bad choices because something feels nice and they continue with it.
Two people (who are responsible for their OWN behaviour) make bad choices.
Nobody is stealing, luring, knabbing, taking or leading the wonderful husband to his demise.
The harsh reality is that he chose to continue pushing at boundaries because it gave him an ego boost and a thrill and then he decided that some extra-marital sex was worth the risk and hurt.

Saschka · 19/09/2023 12:43

He loves his wife. He doesn't want an affair. But now he can't stop thinking about me - about how I make him feel. The way I listen to him and hang on his every word. The way we're such good friends. The way I pay him all that attention while his wife is (as a PP said, at home, frazzled and dealing with laundry).

At this point infidelity has happened already and where it goes from there sort of doesn't matter as the marriage is now in peril of a sort

Very easy to develop a work crush. But at that point, most people pull it back before any harm is done.

If you know you have a work crush, and carry on meeting for coffee, texting them outside of work, or progress to fucking booking a hotel room and lying to your wife that you are going on a work trip, sorry that isn’t something that “just happened, we couldn’t stop ourselves”, it is something you have consciously decided to do.

There is a clear line, which for me personally would be DH getting off with somebody. Other people will have different lines.

Usedandhurt · 19/09/2023 13:00

The thing is you cant force your standards of morality on someone else. Most OW are single from what I gather, therefore they arent cheating in their eyes. The DH is most certainly cheating as he isnt single and he isnt honest. I think we all know far more fallible people that we would like to admit. Affairs happen but let be honest - no amount of temptation will make you cheat, its not a drug - you have to decide to do that, or not as the case may be.

Dwappy · 19/09/2023 13:01

Saschka · 19/09/2023 12:43

He loves his wife. He doesn't want an affair. But now he can't stop thinking about me - about how I make him feel. The way I listen to him and hang on his every word. The way we're such good friends. The way I pay him all that attention while his wife is (as a PP said, at home, frazzled and dealing with laundry).

At this point infidelity has happened already and where it goes from there sort of doesn't matter as the marriage is now in peril of a sort

Very easy to develop a work crush. But at that point, most people pull it back before any harm is done.

If you know you have a work crush, and carry on meeting for coffee, texting them outside of work, or progress to fucking booking a hotel room and lying to your wife that you are going on a work trip, sorry that isn’t something that “just happened, we couldn’t stop ourselves”, it is something you have consciously decided to do.

There is a clear line, which for me personally would be DH getting off with somebody. Other people will have different lines.

Exactly. While having a crush/fantasising about someone isn't ideal if you're married, it's part of being human. But a good man who does not want to cheat on his wife will end things there. He may distance himself etc. He should not be carrying on texting her and booking hotel rooms. Yes humans cannot stop fancying someone, but they can certainly stop any behaviours after that. Being flattered by someone and attracted to them does NOT mean an affair automatically follows this. Someone who really loves their wife should cut it off long before an affair.

LolaSmiles · 19/09/2023 13:18

Dwappy & Saschka
I agree with you both.

An affair isn't an oops something happened.

It's a series of decisions to keep pushing the boundaries, testing the waters, giving it head space, prioritising contact with the person you fancy, finding ways to accidentally meet, choosing to minimise the behaviours, choosing to keep information from your spouse, choosing to put yourself in situations where something might happen, choosing not to pull back when the other person makes the 'first move' or choosing to make the 'first move', choosing to continue the pattern of behaviour, choosing to lie to the spouse, choosing to place the affair partner above the spouse and family unit, choosing to tangle themselves in mental gymnastics to justify their behaviour (hence the scripts).

Unfaithful spouses (of either sex) might like to tell themselves it was just a friendship and some day they accidentally ended up in bed, it was a moment of weakness etc but they're kidding themselves. They know they'd pushed the envelope long before anything happened.

Betrayed spouses might like to tell themselves that their unfaithful spouse was a great husband/wive, a good man/woman, had a happy marriage until the OW/OM turned their head etc, but they're also kidding themselves, probably because it's harder to stomach the full truth that their spouse knowingly and freely behaved in such an awful way. It makes it a little more bearable if you tell yourself that someone else was the catalyst rather than your spouse.

namechangnancy · 19/09/2023 13:21

Jesus wept this thread got worse.

The reason why people say the ow is nothing to you and owes you nothing because sadly she doesn't. Your husband does owe you something and it's written into your marriage vows. Sure it's a shitty move by her but it's not 50/50 blame here in terms who is responsible for fixing the damage done to their family.

Frankly Covid showed everyone when push came to shoves was out for themselves - this mentality is not just for the ow. When it impacted people's freedom and choices no one gave a duck if they went out with Covid and infected little old granny. I'm not sure tbh why people are pretending otherwise

There's plenty of women who have stayed with their cheating husband and that's their choice, so are blaming the ow from luring him away because they believe that's what's best for them but that puts them at risk for this man doing it again. And what's that old saying once a cheat always a ...

But the simple fact is not all mean cheat to begin with. Some men could have sex put in front of them offered daily and lured and chased by the sexiest women on the world and still say no. Repeatedly. If you want to accept that a man slipped and just couldn't help himself landing into a vagina that's your choice. But don't expect every person to say ahh yes poor tony lured away by that big bad women all her fault.

Some have a higher bar for men or partners than that.

Nature shows that mostly in the animal kingdom - the male is the "chaser" when it comes to sex. Obviously that's not all animals but most.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 13:30

boromu222 · 19/09/2023 12:07

You're laughably naive, thats not at all how wikipedia works. It's a highly reliable source in fact.

The OW is not responsible for an adult mans actions, and if you can point out where anyone said she was, I'd like to see that. She is responsible for her own actions. And can be hated and blamed for HER actions, if people want to.

Wikipedia a reliable source? Nope and nope.

The OW is not responsible for the breach of marriage vows. That's on him.

November2024Mummy · 19/09/2023 13:34

The OW is not responsible for the breach of marriage vows. That's on him.

So true. If you're not married, he owes nothing whatsoever.

If you're not married to someone, you can do as you please and ignore social norms. Live your best life and live your truth

Seriously though, pp said the OW is responsible for her own actions. How can you disagree with that? And simultaneously claim that the wife/partner owes the OW respect and fairness?

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 13:34

Saschka · 19/09/2023 12:43

He loves his wife. He doesn't want an affair. But now he can't stop thinking about me - about how I make him feel. The way I listen to him and hang on his every word. The way we're such good friends. The way I pay him all that attention while his wife is (as a PP said, at home, frazzled and dealing with laundry).

At this point infidelity has happened already and where it goes from there sort of doesn't matter as the marriage is now in peril of a sort

Very easy to develop a work crush. But at that point, most people pull it back before any harm is done.

If you know you have a work crush, and carry on meeting for coffee, texting them outside of work, or progress to fucking booking a hotel room and lying to your wife that you are going on a work trip, sorry that isn’t something that “just happened, we couldn’t stop ourselves”, it is something you have consciously decided to do.

There is a clear line, which for me personally would be DH getting off with somebody. Other people will have different lines.

This. I have a work crush right now. I've taken to hotdesking in a different building to avoid him because I don't date colleagues. I don't even know if he's married or not, but I don't date colleagues so it's irrelevant.

It's the responsibility of the married person to pull back.

boromu222 · 19/09/2023 13:39

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 13:30

Wikipedia a reliable source? Nope and nope.

The OW is not responsible for the breach of marriage vows. That's on him.

What are you not getting here? Apart from how wiki works, obvs......

NOONE has said that the OW is responsible for a mans marriage vows. Why are you trying to have an argument against nothing?
She's responsible for herself. If she's fucking a married man, she's a cunt. End of story. It's not about him, it's about her.

Are you still confused?

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 19/09/2023 13:44

boromu222 · 19/09/2023 13:39

What are you not getting here? Apart from how wiki works, obvs......

NOONE has said that the OW is responsible for a mans marriage vows. Why are you trying to have an argument against nothing?
She's responsible for herself. If she's fucking a married man, she's a cunt. End of story. It's not about him, it's about her.

Are you still confused?

I understand perfectly how Wikipedia works, I have an editing account on it!

The OP is literally titled "To think it's perfectly fine to also blame the OW"

Blame, according to the Cambridge Dictionary, indicates that the person is responsible for the wrongdoing. The OW is not responsible for the husband's wrongdoing. It's the husband's wrongdoing that has ruined the marriage. So no, it's not OK to hold the OW responsible for ruining the marriage.

I don't think that I can be clearer.

5128gap · 19/09/2023 13:54

The vast majority of affairs do not involve predatory other women. Most people's cheating spouses are simply not desirable enough for women (who can typically get sex quite easily from a single man if they choose) to work so hard for. Very few cheating men are attractive enough, rich enough or powerful enough to be the target for the sort of irresistible woman capable of tempting them against their will.
At best cheating men are extremely enthusiastic recipient's of the OWs attentions. At worst, and more commonly ime, they work very hard to attract the attention of, befriend and court the women they end up in affairs with.
It might feel more comfortable to imagine ones partner as so desirable some evil woman went all out to steal him despite his attempts to resist. But in reality its vanishingly unlikely to be true.

boromu222 · 19/09/2023 13:58

5128gap · 19/09/2023 13:54

The vast majority of affairs do not involve predatory other women. Most people's cheating spouses are simply not desirable enough for women (who can typically get sex quite easily from a single man if they choose) to work so hard for. Very few cheating men are attractive enough, rich enough or powerful enough to be the target for the sort of irresistible woman capable of tempting them against their will.
At best cheating men are extremely enthusiastic recipient's of the OWs attentions. At worst, and more commonly ime, they work very hard to attract the attention of, befriend and court the women they end up in affairs with.
It might feel more comfortable to imagine ones partner as so desirable some evil woman went all out to steal him despite his attempts to resist. But in reality its vanishingly unlikely to be true.

The vast majority of the affairs of married men involve women. But where they involve men, its just the same.

It doesn't matter if the woman is a predatory man eater or just a woman that doesn't care that he's married. Same same.

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