Is it acceptable for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall?

[twokidstwowheels]

Some context: I'm in France. Schools here are about 30 years behind the UK, however, there are rules (that many teachers just ignore) about what they are/are not allowed to do. Because I'm not in the UK I would really like some perspective on what is and isn't acceptable. French parents went through a harsh system themselves and because of that seem very blasé about any form of discipline that isn't obviously violent!

Anyway, my son is in a mixed class with ages from 5-8, 13 in total. School started two weeks ago and my son told me that in that time he and two others have had to stand facing the wall as a punishment. My son is confused about why but his friend told his mum that it was because DS kept answering questions without putting his hand up, which I can imagine being the case: he struggles not to blurt out his thoughts at the best of times. Another 7-year-old has had to stand there twice, my DS says for fidgeting and "being naughty" along with one of the girls in the class. Is this acceptable in UK schools? AIBU to want to take this up with the head and the mayor (mayors are the ultimate heads of the school here)?

I hate to bust the bubble but it does happen in UK schools. I am a supply teacher and cover a local Prep school. It is common practise for children to have a few minutes time out facing away from other children.
It stops the child becoming the class clown and playing to the audience. It is only for a short period of time. It is just a form of time out.

The Head Teacher has used the technique at assembly. (in front of parents) The 'Dinner Nanny' uses it at lunch time.
It is common practise and mentioned in their policies.
It isn't over used but has an effect.

It doesn't seem to put parents off as they have a long waiting list.

When I am working at the local state school I work within their rules. I sometimes think a couple of minutes time out would help. Rather than have to write up a sheet in triplicate about a minor misdemeanor and place on file.

In each school it is explained to the child why their behaviour wasn't satisfactory.
In each school it is hoped that it will help the individual learn to self regulate.

In the first instance I would speak to the teacher. I am assuming you and your DC have a good command of French.
The teacher may have concerns about his impulsiveness. It could be obvious in a small class. You need to work with the system.
You need to find out their discipline policies. Their expectations of your child.
It doesn't sound like the time out period was very long. Hopefully, used to self regulate and bring everyone's attention back to the lesson.
It is more immediate and better than missing a few minutes of their break after the fact.

Years ago I taught in France and found the expectations very clear cut. Some British families did find it very different.

@Looble i well remember being on holiday at my French grandparents’ aged 15 and going out for a run on a hot summer’s day and drinking a massive glass of menthe à l’eau with ice on my return. My lovely grand-mère was convinced I would drop dead. 40 years later I’m still running in the heat and drinking cold water on my return and I ate’ nt dead yet.

But autistic and Adhd children generally have to learn to adapt to the world around them. It's OK using this as an explanation but it should never be used as an excuse to disrupt others' education. How far do you suggest the teacher goes to accommodate behavior like this? Allow him to answer every question and not allow others a turn? Would you be happy if your child was in a class completely monopolised by one child and no effort was made to control his behavior?
As the mother of an autistic teenager, kindly I say the more people bend to accommodate your child, the harder it gets when they grow up and people stop letting them have their own way

You've been very lucky so far 🤣. The other deathly danger in France is 'hydrocution', which happens if you enter a body of water too soon after a meal. Absolutely deadly.

Edited to say I've just looked it up and it is sort of a thing - it's actually cardiac arrest from cold water shock, nothing to do with food. But not, I think, a great risk on entering a 30 degree swimming pool after lunch, which was the common interpretation of my childhood!

@Looble oh I know it very well! But getting back to the point, ADHD and ASD are simply not acknowledged in France. Profound autism is institutionalised but there simply isn’t the recognition of a spectrum as there is in the U.K., and as far as I know ADHD simply isn’t recognised at all. It’s seen as an imaginary syndrome, in the same way that Brits laugh at ‘heavy legs’.

@MelodiousThunk Yes I totally agree. It's a real scandal. I recall several kids in my primary school class who were in retrospect obviously on the spectrum, and I shudder to recall how they were treated. I suspect things weren't great in the UK either in the early 80s, but at least kids weren't being routinely locked in dark cupboards or smacked by teachers for misbehaving.
I do think there's been some progress in recent years, but it's still patchy at best.

I think it sounds good and would like it to happen to one of the vile kids in my DC’s class who makes racist and homophobic comments yet never seems to see any punishment.

Kids were smacked in my primary school in the 70s but not locked in cupboards. The head in the infants used to put people over her knee in assembly. In juniors it was the slipper but I did see the head smack people too. All very common in other schools too based on what friends have said. There was the cane in secondary.

Did you get professional help for your son's school-based anxiety, before moving him to a different country with a different education system?
I'd have a gentle word with the teacher, and explain that this punishment is very different to the UK. Offer to support rather than complain.

I don't think it would be acceptable in UK schools. But there are regular threads about UK schools along the lines of the teachers can't control the class as the kids know they have no real authority to punish, the kids do whatever they want as the teachers have no recourse day to day to stop bad behaviour in the classroom and there is no respect for teachers and so kids don't feel the need to listen to them etc.

So although it isn't like the UK, I'm not sure that the UK has the balance quite right either so might not be a useful comparison.

What does your son not like about it? That he doesn't feel he did anything wrong? That he doesn't understand why he was punished? That he felt humiliated infront of all his friends? That he is used to a parenting style that explains his behaviours and asks him to correct them, rather than being punished for them? How long was he there for? I don't think there is anything wrong in asking a child to stand away from distractions etc for a few minutes. But not explaining why, punishing for very small reasons (eg a single loud cough, first offence etc) without adequate warning, not explaining why you were being punished, or if the wall say is in the front of the class for all the other children to look at you and it is seen as some kind of humiliation, is different

Also there are a lot of responses about ADHD and ASD etc. Of course if he was doing something as a result of a neurdivergance then the teacher should make reasonable adjustments such as ignoring tics.

However has the OP said that he has Amy diagnosis or she has suspicious that he is not neurological?

There is a big difference between punishing a symptom of ASD and punishing a kid for a similar behaviour that they are doing deliberately to annoy others

UK teacher here, no it is not acceptable to make a child do this but equally if a child is being disruptive to the point no learning is taking place then you would naturally assume the teacher is going to give consequences.

I have no idea how the French education systems works so I’m not sure why you ask about UK schools but my thoughts on your problems are:

You mention you worked closely with the previous teacher and things were better? Have you not spoken to this new teacher? You are making assumptions that as she is new to the school that her style is different. Equally, your child is new to this teacher. A lot of children push boundaries in the first few weeks of school which is entirely natural. Children feel more comfortable knowing what is okay and what isn’t okay. I personally wouldn’t punish a child like this but I do make clear very early on what isn’t going to be tolerated in my classroom. A more constructive consequence for children who push the boundaries is to work with them on why we have rules in place and the impact their behaviour has on others. ND or not, we are teaching children how to survive in society where there are rules you have to follow. This can be done without publicly embarrassing or humiliating the child.

There are several posts on this thread about ND. At this developmental stage, our brains are making social connections. Children are literally programmed to connect with each other all the time and that biology had been around a lot longer than any formal education system. A child who is calling out isn’t necessarily ADHD, autistic or anything else, but it can be a sign.

OP you don’t give any context to this punishment. Is it a one off event or are the children constantly calling out? Seems pretty severe if your child called out once. Did his old teacher allow calling out? There’s a lot to unpick here.

You need to get into school and speak to the teacher asap. It’s my absolute pet peeve when parents would rather speak to other parents/other children/the neighbour’s cat about a problem rather than talking to me. Maybe the teacher isn’t aware of your son’s difficulties coming into school and you can work together on making things better for him.

This is why U.K. schools are shite now... zero discipline and parents "kicking off" when their children are disciplined

Agree; many want to be friends with their kids. We are quite strict about behaviour and rudeness although DD has a lot of personal freedom and independence. I honestly only know a few families like us. Everyone else is “if you do that again I’m throwing all your toys in the bin”. I get shocked looks when I follow through on punishment. DD’s auntie finds it really uncomfortable and tries to placate and I find this quite typical now.

Schools here will move children to another seat with the child’s back to the rest of the class. It’s almost the same thing and used to stop the disruptive child interacting and egging on the rest of the class. It’s a perfectly acceptable strategy.

I like the sound of the french schools tbh. Some kids here are practically feral.

What happened in the previous school? You need to teach your child to be more resilient. The world is not a kind place and unfortunately sometimes kids do have to just suck it up.

He'll be fine, be more strict yourself and stop being a bad parent. If he gets in trouble then you tell him off as well, he'll think twice about being a disruptive little shit next time. Stop letting him get away with bunking. If he's I'll send him in. If he's lost his shoes, send him in shoeless...

I'm 32 not 72 and our weak tolerable system is what leads to ASBOs, bring back the cane!

It's absolutely ok to use standing facing a wall as a sanction when a child is refusing to behave acceptably.
There is no violence, children used to be smacked. There is no humiliation, children used to be shouted at and ridiculed.
Standing a child outside the classroom is not reasonable. The child is not being supervised, and cannot hear the lesson.
Well done teacher for not accepting the unacceptable, having lessons disrupted and simple rules flouted repeatedly.

in Uk it’s quite a common practice to send a badly behaved child to sit in another class with a teacher.I really can’t see any difference between that and facing a wall. If you get sent to a class everyone knows why you’re there.It isn’t traumatic - upsetting maybe but as others have said it’ll give them time to reflect and think ‘hey maybe next time I’ll do as the teacher asked’
I certainly wouldn’t be complaining- I would be talking to my child about acceptable behaviour though.

Not acceptable- Teacher should give reminders in private and then keep in and chat at break for 2 mins if continues. Standing facing wall vey old fashioned and humiliating :(

I had no idea this was a thing anymore.
I was very good in school, but was forced to stand in the corner and face the wall for a lesson. My crime? It was end of term so the teacher set us games to play. One such game was being paired up with someone else, one person going on all fours, and the other person straddling them. I was paired with a boy, and I refused. I was made to stand in the corner for the rest of the lesson, and had a dinner time detention. I was 14 at this time.

When he behaves more appropriately he won't have to do that. He isn't being singled out or humiliated, he is learning that some behaviour isn't acceptable. Ecole primaire is for learning how to behave as a French person as much as anything else.

Children aren't sent out of the room because a) they can't follow what's going on in class and b) they would be unsupervised.

You may think we are strict and weird and old-fashioned because we insist on what we consider good behaviour; for us UK schools insisting children all wear the same thing and can't have their hair as they like it seems '30 years out of date'. Maybe France is not for you.

Don't go and tell the maire you think the punishment is too harsh, he or she won't understand why you would wish to have a badly-behaved child.

I really couldn’t get worked up about this as a punishment. Sometimes that’s exactly what a child needs: to be separated from their peers, without eye contact, until the teacher can get to them and resolve the situation. I’m kind of shocked at the outrage about it.

The question is not what is acceptable to France or the UK....but what is acceptable to YOU in relation to your child. Even if the French and English would accept this if it is traumatic for you son in light of his history it isn't acceptable. THAT is what you need to tell the teacher.