Is it acceptable for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall?

[twokidstwowheels]

Some context: I'm in France. Schools here are about 30 years behind the UK, however, there are rules (that many teachers just ignore) about what they are/are not allowed to do. Because I'm not in the UK I would really like some perspective on what is and isn't acceptable. French parents went through a harsh system themselves and because of that seem very blasé about any form of discipline that isn't obviously violent!

Anyway, my son is in a mixed class with ages from 5-8, 13 in total. School started two weeks ago and my son told me that in that time he and two others have had to stand facing the wall as a punishment. My son is confused about why but his friend told his mum that it was because DS kept answering questions without putting his hand up, which I can imagine being the case: he struggles not to blurt out his thoughts at the best of times. Another 7-year-old has had to stand there twice, my DS says for fidgeting and "being naughty" along with one of the girls in the class. Is this acceptable in UK schools? AIBU to want to take this up with the head and the mayor (mayors are the ultimate heads of the school here)?

Why is facing the wall a terrible punishment? Better than being sent out the class. He can still listen whilst facing the wall, and not disrupt the lesson which is what he was punished for doing in the first place. How would you expect a teacher to deal with your unruly child??

My kids (very touchy feely) state primary school in the UK makes kids face the wall in the playground if they've misbehaved during break! And if they misbehave in class they are sent to another class. Yes it's probably embarrassing but that's sort of the point of any punishment, no? If a child is disrupting the learning of others there needs to be some action taken.

No embarrassment is not appropriate, and the aim should be teaching the correct way to do things, not humiliating them into submission.

No, we’re saying it’s wholly inappropriate to punish someone for being Neuro Diverse.

We used to punish children for holding a pen in their left hand but presumably you wouldn’t support that ideology nowadays?

What is needed is for the education system to evolve and provide a basic education to fit the individual child’s needs and stop trying to stick children into a one size fits all strait jacket.

I agree in theory. I don't punish my kids at all in that sense. But if I was dealing with 30 7yos all by myself, I suspect my options for dealing with disruptive kids would become a little less gentle.

I went to school in France 25+ years ago and I remember in college, so around age 12 a couple of kids being slapped around the face by the teacher for being "insolent" (I think they were answering back if I recall), so this seems mild in comparison!

One thing I would say is that by the time I got to lycee (so age 15 or so) I genuinely don't remember any cases of bad behaviour, talking back, being rude in any of my classes.

I'm obviously not saying corporal punishment is ok at all, but perhaps stricter discipline in school results in better behaved classes, much like parenting.

My DD says that there are plenty of "troublemakers" in her classes here in the UK and they get sanctions or have to sit in isolation, but the kids don't seem to care, so I don't know if it has any direct impact on behaviour.

It wouldn’t happen in our schools. Whether I think it’s acceptable or not depends on the behaviour being punished. Some children could do with a short sharp shock.
French people have always had more balls than us though. What’s behaviour like in french schools? What’s the teacher retention situation? Perhaps they’re onto something!

I don’t think this is a banned punishment in the U.K. though it may have largely fallen out of fashion. It was certainly still being used 5 years ago at my son’s secondary school which for what it’s worth had an Ofsted outstanding rating and the headteacher was knighted because he had transformed discipline and therefore outcomes in a short period taking the school from special measures to outstanding across two inspection periods.

Clearly it’s not a sanction suitable for every child or every infraction but I don’t understand the posters shouting this is unacceptable. Sanctions for poor behaviour are supposed to be unpleasant within a reasonable spectrum and this one doesn’t feel outside of that spectrum.

Did I miss the bit where the OP says her son is neuro diverse?
As soon as discipline is mentioned, autism is assumed.
Good luck with finding an education system that fits every individual child's needs.

@Somaliwildass

I see children behaving like this everyday and I'm saying that taking them away from the situation is valid in showing them how to behave in it. Autism doesn't stop a child being able to learn what's appropriate and short of excluding children…

🤦🏻‍♀️

Yes, you can choose to humiliate a left handed child and make them write with their right hand, but why would you want to do that?

Do you honestly believe that by explaining to a child with Autism that their behaviour is unacceptable, that it will magically cure them?

FML! I’m 58 and haven’t been cured yet. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm wondering what "consequence" people who are objecting strongly would give for a disruptive child. Or should we just expect children to be disruptive and let them get on with it?

I remember being sent to stand in the corner in reception for telling the child next to me to sit properly as she was sitting with her toes poking me and we were meant to sit cross legged. It was the third time we'd both been told to stop whispering.
What irritated me is she bumped her knee when she stood up and cried so spent the time on the TA's lap having her knee rubbed. It was her fault anyway; if she'd sat properly I wouldn't have had to whisper. 😁
I don't remember doing the standing. But I do remember thinking that pretending to bump my knee and crying seemed a very good way of getting out of a punishment.

Absolutely this...

I don't even remember having to do this at primary school and I was there in the late 80s/early 90s!

We had to stand with our backs against a wall at lunchtimes if we were naughty, but never facing it and never in the classroom.

We were however sent out of the classroom to stand outside the door in a 'middle area'. Wouldn't have dared wander off or do anything else naughty once you were sent out and no one was keeping an eye on you either!

Funnily enough I was often 'sent out' and punished so I remember it very well. Often for interrupting, calling out, fidgeting, rocking on my chair or chatting. Turns out I'm autistic, and have ADHD. But I'm female and cognitively able so no one knew. I liked being sent out because it was quiet out there and gave me a break, no doubt.

France or no France I wouldn't send my children to a school that made them stand facing a wall for any reason. It's awful. It wouldn't -or shouldn't -happen now in the UK.

I'm not saying I actively agree with it, and I certainly wouldn't use it as a punishment myself. But I have other options available to me which are possibly not available in a very small school.

The biggest difference is the shame aspect, and we absolutely do not use shame as a punishment in the UK.

FGS your son is playing up, whether it’s to keep calling out or in some other way. He’s obviously not listening to the teacher and they are having to instil discipline. Would he prefer to be sent to stand outside the classroom or outside the headteachers office?

Friend’s DD is teaching Year 2 this year, so far she has had a child stand up and scream for nearly 5 minutes, a boy expose himself and three children refuse to sit down and do any work. Any discipline she has tried to impose has had parents complaining because their child suffers from anxiety, or ‘they’re well behaved at home’. She is seriously considering packing it in, she’s giving it 2 more weeks. She’s an experienced teacher but reckons that since lockdown some children have become almost feral and the parents are enabling this behaviour.

OP you've said it's not allowed but it's done.

You've said French parents have different ideas of what's acceptable punishments.

Both of those are correct from my family experience. We deliberately did not put our child in French school. Very deliberately.

You've also said that your DS found school traumatic, he has managed to recover from the impact of that over the past year.

You've said the last year's recovery was due to working closely with the teacher.

And now he's starting to show early signs of school refusing.

My question back to you is this: for whatever reason, you've chosen to live in France, with a child. As you're British, there is a certain decision about it, even if you've been living there for 20 years. He's still young an managed to have a decent year of school due to your involvement with the teacher. You know the attitude at school. Are you ready to get involved every year? Because it's a very real possibility. And in a mixed age class in a small village, you don't have many alternatives.

I would be very seriously considering all options at this point. Damage to your son's mental health isn't something that can be reset - as you can see, even things many other parents see as insignificant are now "triggers" for him. He needs a chance to develop in a psychologically safe place.

I've met teachers in France who were nice enough. I'm pretty certain none of them knew the concept of "psychologically safe".

I agree with you. Nobody deserves to be humiliated and shamed. I thought this was done in schools more than a hundred years ago not today!

How is standing by a wall for a few minutes "psychological torture"?

Some of this hyperbole is utterly offensive.

Teach your child to behave. Easy. Then it won’t happen.

Standing facing the wall for a few minutes is hardly "cruel or degrading punishment" is it.
Just adapt to things being different in France like driving on the other side of the road.

Absolutely not okay. If it would be an unacceptable way to treat adults then it’s an unacceptable to treat children like this. All it teaches him is that he’s inferior to the teacher instead of actually learning that he needs to respect his peers and put his hand up so there is equal opportunity.

The biggest difference is the shame aspect, and we absolutely do not use shame as a punishment in the UK.

The French use "low level" shame as a punishment frequently. It's not considered bad. I'm not sure they even think about it at all tbh.

Honestly, if your child is traumatized from having to face a wall for a few minutes, then they need to toughen up. FFS.

It's not humiliation to give clear rules for everyone and consistently give immediate consequences for failure to follow them.

Of course I believe that explaining expectations, actively teaching behaviours and giving reasons for certain conduct is necessary.

(And of course I don't believe autism can be cured. But, as has been pointed out to by other posters, the child in question hasn't been described as being autistic by his parent, so this isn't really relevant)

*Also, you've just quoted only part of my previous post and then said 'Yes......' and something about left handed children as if responding to something not displayed. This is misleading, as I never mentioned that at all.

@DivorcingEU

I think it can have its place. One should be made to feel ashamed for poor choices.

It is a totally normal punishment in French schools. At least they have (mostly) stopped putting tape over their mouths.

I'm not quite sure what asking about UK schools will help.