Is it acceptable for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall?

[twokidstwowheels]

Some context: I'm in France. Schools here are about 30 years behind the UK, however, there are rules (that many teachers just ignore) about what they are/are not allowed to do. Because I'm not in the UK I would really like some perspective on what is and isn't acceptable. French parents went through a harsh system themselves and because of that seem very blasé about any form of discipline that isn't obviously violent!

Anyway, my son is in a mixed class with ages from 5-8, 13 in total. School started two weeks ago and my son told me that in that time he and two others have had to stand facing the wall as a punishment. My son is confused about why but his friend told his mum that it was because DS kept answering questions without putting his hand up, which I can imagine being the case: he struggles not to blurt out his thoughts at the best of times. Another 7-year-old has had to stand there twice, my DS says for fidgeting and "being naughty" along with one of the girls in the class. Is this acceptable in UK schools? AIBU to want to take this up with the head and the mayor (mayors are the ultimate heads of the school here)?

Yep .

It doesn't matter if we all find it acceptable or not, or whether it's normal in France or not. Point is it IS damaging to her DS.

When people say he's "playing up", for certain it's not anything like what happens under that label in British schools. Discipline is much tighter in France. Much. There are positives and negatives to that, however, given the type of punishment he received and that the mother hasn't been spoken to about his behaviour, it's very likely behaviour that nobody would even notice in Britain.

Do you remember “Hands on heads!” “ Fingers on lips!” ? Ah the draconian punishments of yesteryear.Facing the wall was usually for disturbing other students and was effective. So what do you think a teacher can do if a child is being a bit disruptive? They aren’t bad enough to be sent out of the class, they have carried on bad behaviour like calling out, whispering, passing notes or whatever so what would you all suggest when you have a class of over 20 pupils and you are trying to teach a lesson which is why you are all there? I know the answer! It is the teacher’s fault of course.

That’s exactly what I was thinking, how humiliated I would have felt if this had been done to me at school. I remember getting smacked across the back for doodling when in primary school and that was bad enough but it was preferable to being made to get up in front of the class and go stand against a wall. It doesn’t sit right with me. Can you homeschool or change to a different one?

I used to teach in French schools (albeit older children at collège and not for about a decade). Standing making children stand facing the wall/standing outside the classroom etc. was quite normal at the schools I worked in, though it was not a punishment I used.
It's not used in UK schools anymore afaik (probably because it's pretty ineffective; I can remember being made to do the same when I was a child at school in the 80s/90s).
As you say, the French school system is TOTALLY different from schools in the UK; some of those differences are better in my opinion, some are worse, some are just neutral. So taking something that's normal in UK schools (e.g. a 40-min lunch break, or a uniform, or starting at 9am and finishing at 3.20pm) and using that as the 'gold standard' is really meaningless; imo this extends to pedagogical or disciplinary methods.
So YABU in thinking this punishment is 'wrong'. Ineffective? Probably. Old-fashioned? Yes. But certainly not traumatic imo.
You'd be better to work with the school and let them know that your son has had past difficulties, and you know he struggles to keep quiet til it's his turn to speak - ask how you can work together to improve this.

The French from my limited experience have a much more socialist view of children and acceptable behavior.
Be it state or private their view on acceptable behaviors in children is more rigid than UK, Canada or US.
Special needs will be treated as poor parenting.

Some people are more sensitive than others. I found the whole school experience traumatic (undiagnosed ASD) and just because you’re tough enough to handle something it doesn’t mean that someone else can. Lifelong trauma can be caused by something like this.

It was a thing in the 70s, I see remember a lot of time staring at the wall !

I'd have somebody having time out at a wall but facing out.

Nonsense. The child is inferior to the teacher. It's attitudes like this that lead to children thinking they are equal to adults, thinking they can do as they please and causing mayhem in many UK schools.

You can't apply the same standards to adults as you do to children, who are still being taught how to fit into society.

Hello. As an English trained teacher in an international school in France, this is something that would never be allowed at my school.
HOWEVER, my child is in French school and although this has never happened to them, it doesn't surprise me. The whole system of French schools is very "old school" - blackboards, writing of lines, hours of memorisation, no movement in the classroom etc etc. My child is used to it but if yours is coming from England or is small, they may not be. You can definitely bring it up with the teacher or head teacher, but expect them to be dismissive and defensive. And the mayor won't do anything as he does not control the pedagogical side of things. For that, you would need to complain to the inspectrice. But nothing would happen I don't think.
If you are staying in France, your child will need to get used to this sort of thing.

This was kind of what I was trying to get at. In the UK, this would be absolutely humiliating, largely because it's never used. But if it's widely used in France, then this dilutes that shame significantly, in a kind of "meh, it happens to everyone" way. I still would never use this as a punishment myself, but I'm not aghast at the idea that other countries do.

If it’s not allowed then I would suggest don’t let yourself be swayed by cultural norms. What I mean is, you feel it’s not okay. I also feel it’s not okay by the way!

if it’s not allowed then you have that to your advantage- have a conversation with the headteacher and see where it takes you initially .

pS for background I grew up in Spain in the 80s/90s and I am familiar with this punishment but it would not be used these days! Am surprised at how behind the times France is if this is still happening …

Time outs still happen in English primary. Regularly. I’m surprised so many don’t realise this!

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, just the OPs posts. In our school, if a child misbehaved, then their name was written on the board. Next time it was underlined. The third time a box was drawn round it. That seemed to be enough for most kids, and for the kids who didn't respond to that I think there would be a behavioural assessment for special needs.

It sounds as though OPs DS would benefit from an assessment. I and DC are diagnosed ASD and life got much much easier after diagnosis.

We found a wonderful teacher and worked with her to bring him back. He's happy there and enjoys learning along with the social aspects. Homeschooling is a last resort given our financial situation. Alternative schools will be our next avenue, if this teacher doesn't work out. But first we want to try to work it out.

French schools aren't 30 years behind for starters. I find that quite offensive. This is a problem in your school, not in 'french' schools.

I worked in a school in 2013. The head teacher used standing facing the wall in her office as a punishment. I always thought it was wrong, and it wasn't done at my now-adult DC's schools. I went to school in the 70s, so hitting was the thing 🙁

😂😂😂the trauma of being made to stand for 10 min in class?
I'm french and I can assure that 1) it is totally allowed to get kids to stand ! and 2) there is no trauma there...

Given the state of anarchy some schools end up in here in the UK, I'm not sure the UK is "30 years ahead" like you like to tell yourself. I haven't yet heard of French schools giving detention for having the wrong shoes or having to lock lavatories during breaks...

Whether of not it is acceptable in China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, UK, or wherever for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall is irrelevant. You live in France and your child goes to school in France.

Absolutely wouldn’t happen in the UK and shouldn’t be happening anywhere. You need to step in fast I think. French education system is v rigid - I did an exchange as a teacher and was pretty shocked by the lack of flexibility in the curriculum.

How long was this punishment?
I dont think its particularly harsh. Your son will learn to put his hand up & the teacher will be able to teach the whole class with set rules

It's definitely about shame, you wouldn't get a 5yo to do a time out like that, you get the 10yo because they will be a bit ashamed. Again - unless the teacher single out a child - no one would get traumatised by that.
One of my teacher when I was about 9 would send us play in the little kids sandpit as a punishment when we were talking in class.

I think a chat with the teacher to explain that your son does not seem to understand what behaviour resulted in the punishment would be the best way forward. That confusion is probably causing more anxiety to you son than the actual having to face the wall. Maybe you can talk with him about what other children did that was unacceptable to the teacher and why that would disrupt the class. It's not the worst punishment but seems a bit outdated.

I was talking to my class (Y5/6) about it this week - when I started teaching there was lots of it. Also hands on head and your nose had to keep a piece of paper up on the wall otherwise you were in even more trouble.

I hasten to add I never gave out a punishment like this - it was those old school usually male teachers (secondary teacher back then) whose idea of tutor time was to keep the kids silent so they could read the Daily Mirror.

My class were shocked!

Oh my god this is awful. This is humiliation punishment and deeply harmful to children. I would absolutely be kicking off if this were my child.