Is it acceptable for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall?

[twokidstwowheels]

Some context: I'm in France. Schools here are about 30 years behind the UK, however, there are rules (that many teachers just ignore) about what they are/are not allowed to do. Because I'm not in the UK I would really like some perspective on what is and isn't acceptable. French parents went through a harsh system themselves and because of that seem very blasé about any form of discipline that isn't obviously violent!

Anyway, my son is in a mixed class with ages from 5-8, 13 in total. School started two weeks ago and my son told me that in that time he and two others have had to stand facing the wall as a punishment. My son is confused about why but his friend told his mum that it was because DS kept answering questions without putting his hand up, which I can imagine being the case: he struggles not to blurt out his thoughts at the best of times. Another 7-year-old has had to stand there twice, my DS says for fidgeting and "being naughty" along with one of the girls in the class. Is this acceptable in UK schools? AIBU to want to take this up with the head and the mayor (mayors are the ultimate heads of the school here)?

I'm not sure it's so easy to get approval to home educate in France.

TBH whilst it wouldn't be allowed in schools on the UK now, I remember it being common place in my school in the 90s, especially in primary where the teachers couldn't send students out of the classroom to stand in the hall like the secondary teachers could (due to safety issues of them being out of sight) but they needed to give a child a "time out" if they're being disruptive/messing around. It would only be for a few minutes though, whilst the teacher finished their presentation/questions or while we finished the specific activity that had been disrupted etc and then the child would be allowed to sit down again, if they had missed any written work whilst in time out then it was just known that they would have to stay in during break/lunch to finish.

In my class you would be sent to stand at the back/side of the classroom so you were visible to the teacher to keep an eye on you but you weren't visible to other students to distract/disrupt but some teachers would have a specific "naughty spot" at the side of the blackboard where you would be made to stand if you were being disruptive.

Essentially it takes them away from the group, makes it so the class can't see their face and they can't see the class (so if anyone was egging a friend on or pulling faces etc then they couldn't do so) and allows the class to continue without disruption whilst also keeping the child in the room.

Is it ideal? No, but I think you need to work on your child's behaviour too - if he's calling out and being disruptive then he's stopping other children learning.

This.
It is what it is.
I'm in Italy and ours at that age can be suspended, sent to the HT, sent out of the room for the rest of the lesson, get a written disciplinary note on the electronic register and can receive a "fail" mark for behaviour at the end of the year.

None of which tends to happen funnily enough.

It's not normal in the UK but when I was at primary late 80s, I had to stand facing the wall or in the corner and they would say it is because we don't want to see your face when you are misbehaving. This was a private school though. Also had to sit on hands and worst one was secondary standing outside in the snow with just a jumper for the whole lesson.

Calling out answers or hiccuping or coughing loudly - sounds like he is being disruptive

If you think he will be traumatised by the punishment they use then perhaps suggest he doesn't act in a disruptive manner?

Our music teacher (senior school) in the 70s/80s made any child that disrupted class go and stand at the front, side on with their hands behind their back, bent over with their nose resting on the desk for the duration of the lesson.

Needless to say, no girls ever disrupted his class and once a boy had been 'punished' in this manner he never did it again.

It was embarrassing but no one was traumatised.

Very effective at getting a children to pay attention and not be disruptive.

No, this absolutely would not be allowed in the UK.

Kids these days get offended by having an F or red pen on their papers... (or is it the adults getting traumatised on their behalf?)

I think the world is tough, and you have to prepare your kids for the hardships of life just as much as you have to educate them in schools. If facing a wall is the worst thing you've experienced by the time you leave school, adulthood is going to be like a brick to the face.

I think that is absolutely terrible ,and that a good teacher would not have to resort to this type of bullying behaviour

Also, I forgot to add to my post, is your child one of the oldest in the mixed age group?

I taught in Spanish schools and in one rural school there were so few students that there was literally 3 classes - Kindergarten and Reception; Yr1-Yr3; Yr4-6 - but that meant that you often had to teach a few different things at various levels at the same time and it was often a balancing act of keeping everyone engaged but not letting the oldest kids constantly bulldoze over the youngest because they already know the answers.

If you have a Yr 6 child who is constantly calling out answers to the Yr 4 level questions before the Yr 4s had a chance to answer (for example) then it can be disruptive and also actively hinder the Yr4s from learning.

Perhaps the world would be a kinder place if these practices were not considered necessary to toughen children up. IME there was an element of some teachers being very unkind.

I teach that age group and no, we aren't allowed to do that. We can do "time out" where a child sits in a different area of the classroom or is sent to another class.

How do you deal with poor behaviour at home?

I think that you need to explain to your son why he can't just call out answers, but I also think that you should have a chat with his new teacher about your son's past experience.
It's all well and good people saying that he shouldn't feel traumatised and therefore get on with it, but he is upset and he is showing this in his behaviour before school.
Some children need a little more help to understand what is expected of them in school.

Even in a child with known anxiety and emotionally-based school avoidance?

Very poor teaching/class management especially if your son has to be told by others what he has done wrong.

How do you know that no-one was traumatised?

This is punishment we used to get in the 90’s in the UK. Didn’t realise it wasn’t a thing anymore! Never did us any harm.

I remember having to do this in the first years of primary school- so like 1994-1996. No idea if they still do it in England or not as my son is only three. No trauma suffered from having to stand facing the wall as far as I know. I honestly can’t remember why I was made to stand facing the wall but I’m sure I must have been doing something which wasn’t seen as acceptable. I actually have fond memories of primary school and all the teachers who taught me- I remember everyone of them to this day.

@twokidstwowheels im also in france but DS isn’t in school yet - you’re right they are behind the times. Just wanted to say I would go mad if this was done to my son here at school! So YADNBU - I’m English for context but sounds like the teacher thinks she is teaching teens rather than young kids imo. I wouldn’t tolerate this here despite knowing how old fashioned they are. Let us know what you decide to do?? Xx

It wouldn't be acceptable in the UK, and I think it's appallingly outdated, but I doubt you'll have much success bringing it up with the mayor etc. Unfortunately I think it's one of those where you have to accept the culture that you've adopted. It's not as bad as it could be. If there are severe effects on DC then it might be worth looking at individual support or alternative options outside the normal school system.

I can’t believe people think this is acceptable. Wherever you are.

This post is incredibly triggering for me. It brought back memories I thought I had buried of when I was looked after by a close relative and they would punish me like this.

I now think of what happened to me as a subtle form of psychological torture. It is incredibly demeaning and humiliating (awful also for the kids who witness it). I wish I could be more articulate about what it feels like.

I wouldn’t keep a child in a school that allows this. If it is common practice in France all I can say is that they are barbaric.

I don’t see what’s humiliating about it? It’s better than being sent out of the classroom, because the teacher can keep an eye on you, you can still hear the class etc. The child can’t face the room for obvious reasons. I remember sitting outside the classroom and feeling gleeful I could daydream without getting caught - hardly a punishment!

Is it being punished in front of other kids? I think if the acting up happened in front of other kids, it’s a natural consequence and the teacher has to do what she can. I doubt your DS wasn’t reminded/warned a few times to raise his hand before speaking. That’s worth checking.

I think you need to speak to him more about this. This sort of behavioural punishment doesn’t just happen unless the woman is a real witch (which is possible). Talk to her, too, at drop off. Get the measure of her. If she’s normal but strict, then frankly your son doesn’t get to school-refuse because he can’t behave himself and doesn’t want natural consequences (assuming he’s NT).

I have no idea why you are asking UK based parents if this punishment would be ok in the UK system because it is absolutely irrelevant. Most people will agree that we think it is pretty archaic, you are in France where different norms apply. I have a French MIL who has lived in the UK for most of her adult life because she didn’t want to live in what she perceives as a very conservative culture (she is in her 80s and still thinks that). You have to go with the system you are in or move elsewhere if you are unhappy. One thing is definite, the French education system will not change for you.

It depends, if it’s to just get them out the way to diffuse a situation I think it’s quite effective - I use it with my dc when they’re fighting and I want it broken up. I don’t think it really sounds appropriate for the situation you describe.