Is it acceptable for a teacher to punish a child by making them stand facing the wall?

[twokidstwowheels]

Some context: I'm in France. Schools here are about 30 years behind the UK, however, there are rules (that many teachers just ignore) about what they are/are not allowed to do. Because I'm not in the UK I would really like some perspective on what is and isn't acceptable. French parents went through a harsh system themselves and because of that seem very blasé about any form of discipline that isn't obviously violent!

Anyway, my son is in a mixed class with ages from 5-8, 13 in total. School started two weeks ago and my son told me that in that time he and two others have had to stand facing the wall as a punishment. My son is confused about why but his friend told his mum that it was because DS kept answering questions without putting his hand up, which I can imagine being the case: he struggles not to blurt out his thoughts at the best of times. Another 7-year-old has had to stand there twice, my DS says for fidgeting and "being naughty" along with one of the girls in the class. Is this acceptable in UK schools? AIBU to want to take this up with the head and the mayor (mayors are the ultimate heads of the school here)?

I would ask all of you to try it for yourselves. Go and stand in front of a wall without turning around, sitting down or fidgeting. Put your timer on for 5/10 mins then tell me what it was like.

Now imagine a 5 year old having to do that. During a whole lesson. In front of classmates and a power wielding teacher.

Exactly! It's the MN mantra that children should not be 'punished' for their yobbish behaviour, better that they are 'understood' and to hell with the children who actually want to learn. For those who are attacking the French school's discipline mode what would you do with the gobby littlescotes interfering with your lesson?

If the consequences of specific bits of disruptive behaviour are made clear to all pupils and this rule is used fairly then I think it’s for you to explain to your child that such rules are needed for the lesson to
be fair to all pupils.

Probably because they have never recovered from the trauma they suffered at school due to harsh discipline!

Harsh discipline? Maybe you object to any form of discipline! Hardly 'traumatic', a word few on this site understand.

It was normal when I was that age, four decades ago, but not now. And those reasons fidgeting and not putting his hand up, are appalling. I would not be happy. Those reasons weren’t used for punishment even in my day!

Children should be disciplined but not like this. What does a child learn from it except to “respect” and fear bullies.

We had to do that in my prep school. TBH it was about the only punishment there that wasn't traumatic as there was also corporal punishment and verbal humiliation.

I was a v gobby child too but as the rules were consistent I and everyone else learned to put our hands up and be quiet.

Neither I nor any of the teachers I know would consider doing this; it's completely outdated and inappropriate. I don't know whether it's common practice in France but I would certainly raise an objection.

I see the "didn't do me any harm" brigade have arrived. Personally, as a child living with daily abuse at home, I found it terrifying to be made to face the wall at school. Being able to hear people while being prevented from seeing them was a nightmare. The humiliation was a secondary factor.

It's not acceptable. It is humiliating and quite a vulnerable position to be in - everyone can see you but you can't see anyone. It is also horrible to treat a new child so severely. Calling out is not a crime against humanity. He just needs a kindly reminder or a non verbal signal to prompt him in the moment. I work in a primary and our behaviour policy has sanctions but our overall approach is respectful and calm. Unwanted behaviours should be dealt with the lightest touch (not touch, literally) possible. Behaviour at our school is mainly excellent because all staff follow the same approach. We do have difficult behaviours at times but still deal with them calmly and respectfully

Good job you’re not a teacher or a parent of a ND child. 🙄

It’s pretty obvious from your ‘suck it up’ mentality that you have zero understanding of Autism traits as fidgeting and blurting things out are extremely common. It’s got nothing to do with seeking attention, unlike your twatty post.

Could you practise at-home by playing schools op? He practises putting his hand up to answer rather than calling out. It might help him more than going to the mayor.

The school my child attends does this at break and lunch times.
If there naughty for what ever reason in lessons they have to miss some break time by facing the wall in the playground.
And yes it's a UK school.

I was going to say that of course that wouldn't be acceptable in the UK. But then I remembered that at my kids' primary school they have to stand out by the wall for 2 mins at a time if they're being silly at break/lunch and they don't listen to the first warning.

It does sound very old fashioned. But tbf it's quite standard to send kids out into the corridor for a couple of minutes if they're being disruptive. If it's a small school with few "roaming" staff, then it might be too risky to send them out. But from what I've heard (I'm a secondary teacher at a school with a very mixed international intake) French schools are very strict!

This is the mildest possible punishment I can imagine, are we seriously saying this is horrible and traumatising?!

Poor behaviour implies that the individual has control over their actions and has the intention to cause disruption.

An ND person like myself (50’s female with Autism) does not have the same level of control and so interactions with groups of people can still be awkward. Unlike NT people, I actually have to be thinking of 2 or 3 things at once to enable me to focus on a single task.

Presumably you wouldn’t punish someone with a squint for looking at you oddly? Or maybe you would?

No that is not acceptable here in the UK. Our kids get screamed at and sent out the class. Think I'd prefer standing at a wall tbh.

The punishment wouldn't be ok in UK schools because it would be deemed humiliation.
It would be reasonable in the UK to tell a student who is disrupting learning to step outside the classroom, speak to them, and if no change in behaviour send them to work in a different room so others can learn.

What matters here is you get advice from someone who knows the French system though.

waiting in a corridor is actually very different to standing facing a wall. Try it.

I'm not sure why you think you know anything about me and have confidently asserted so.

I see children behaving like this everyday and I'm saying that taking them away from the situation is valid in showing them how to behave in it. Autism doesn't stop a child being able to learn what's appropriate and short of excluding children physically from the classroom, movement within the room and seeing that they won't be included without following certain rules is effective. With no diagnosis of an issue, and improvement of behaviour with discipline, there's not really an argument.

Blurting things out might sound relatively harmless and is often attributed to one developmental disorder or another, but without often in a classroom it is to gain attention/status/power over others. It can mostly be helped and 'low level' things like this must be addressed otherwise masses of time is wasted, children miss explanations, the whole class don't get chance to be challenged or think for themselves, the teacher can't as accurately judge understanding of everyone and it's reinforced for the disruptive child that by being vocal they can get their own way above others.

They are now. In my sons school anyway.

It's designed to humiliate.

Unacceptable

Children at my school are sometimes asked to stand near the fence or edge of the playground as a time out. That's not the same as facing a wall. They can see what is going on around them but can't play or interact with others.

I doubt that standing facing a wall is going to lead to trauma...

No offence, but you have no idea what causes trauma, as its very individual and depends on the context, what may be fine for you may be traumatic for others. Op has already said her son has had previous bad experiences in school, so potentially yes, this may cause trauma.

This was a punishment used by at the first school I went to - in the 1980s. I didn’t hear the teacher ask me to do something and they made me stand facing the wall in the lunch hall while all the other pupils were sat eating their lunch. I was only around 6 years old. If this happened at my childrens’ school I would be really upset. It’s designed to degrade and humiliate the child. It’s cruel and out dated.

My kids (very touchy feely) state primary school in the UK makes kids face the wall in the playground if they've misbehaved during break! And if they misbehave in class they are sent to another class. Yes it's probably embarrassing but that's sort of the point of any punishment, no? If a child is disrupting the learning of others there needs to be some action taken.

With regards to challenging the French system of discipline, you are tilting at windmills. It's a tough system and very unsympathetic to special needs of any description. If you approach the mayor the only consequence will be a good laugh at the crazy English lady. It's far from ideal I agree, but that's what you sign up for if you move to a small french village.

For context, my (french) primary school 45 years ago had teachers lifting kids up by their ears, and punishment was being locked in a cupboard. Others my age were slapped and smacked by teachers. So things are better than they were!