To wonder why relationship, marriage and kids are still seen as a ’ successful’ life?

[OnedayTwodays]

Reading here and also IRL so many people, still, thinks that this the ’LifePlan’ everyone not only wants, but must have.

Some thread about perhaps not so nice people, people say it brings them joy to know they end up alone and old - as in being single is seen as some kind of a punishment.

Single, or god forbid if your childfree, stilm have to explain why.
Say your single and when asked you say you don’t hook up or having casual arrangement or whatever, and people look at you like you have two heads.

Will we ever move on and stop assuming everyone wants/lives the same way?
Will the stigma ever go away?

Why is it that even now being in a relationship/kids is seen the proper, mature, right way to live?

Feminism seeks to give equality of choice and opportunity to men and women. What about that is it that you’re opposed to @Siameasy? human nature does not fit into the binary of “men do x, women do y”. Just look at the damage that’s done in other areas - criminalisation of homosexuality, male suicide rates through the roof because showing emotion isn’t manly, to name a couple. What is it about people striving for genuine choice how to live their lives that you hate?

Not speaking for Siameasy here but many of my male peers and previous male classmates absolutely do blame feminism for the plummeting marriage and birth rates.

The idea is that they want to go back to the days where men are the providers and women are the dependents. This level of thinking is rife in men my age (mid 20s to early 30s). Meanwhile, the women I know grew up in households where the men ultimately had the final say because they "brought home the bacon". We saw our dads cheating and our mums staying because they didn't know where to go if they were to leave. It's all nice and equal until you fall out of the provider's graces and they decide that they no longer want to provide anymore.

Women my age OTOH want a more 50/50 type of relationship. I theorise that that's why singledom is on the rise. There's such a huge mismatch in expectations that many I know are just opting out of dating altogether.

So it sounds like the men you know are misogynists, and blame feminism for the fact they have to improve themselves and see women as equal counterparts rather than puppets they can fuck and order around, and the women you know are saying bugger that, if all that’s on offer is a sexist dinosaur I’m staying single? Sounds like the women are making a sensible choice. The problem isn’t feminism, it’s the men and their attitudes.

As for people who are childfree by choice, yes, I know many would be relieved if we were in fact infertile.

I've had a lot of chemo for cancer and that has made me infertile. When I was told my only reaction was good, now I don't have to bother taking the pill anymore or relying on condoms.

To reduce men to masculine and women to feminine is doing both sexes a massive disservice. We are all individuals and what works for one individual, might not work for another.

Being a mother certainly didn't suit mine. She spent our childhood doped up on Valium (like many other women of her age) and our adulthood on 2 bottles of wine a day, up to her death at 66 from pancreatic cancer.

I do think misogyny is on the rise with people my age and younger. I still remember when I graduated mid pandemic, and was fretting on the unofficial school subreddit and discord channels about not being able to find a job in my field. The second highest upvoted answer was that I should do Only Fans, and then many comments about how women are lucky to be able to make "FAANG money" even if they can't get a job in those tech companies, and should "make good use of their looks while they can". These are my peers. Not some random basement troll, but people I went to uni with. This attitude is widespread amongst men my age.

I do think this sort of attitude also contributes to why many women I know are now relationship avoidant. I think this attitude is a pushback to feminism. Many women now no longer have to be dependent on a man. What that means is that they also no longer have to put up with questionable "boys will be boys" type of behaviour or slog around the house or with the kid while their spouses do the bare minimum.

If people want things to change, men (and women) need to move away from the "men are valued for what they provide, women are valued for how they look and what they can do in the home" mindset. Many women have moved on from that already, and if men haven't, well you only have to look at how people are choosing to stay single to see how there's a mismatch of expectations going on.

@Siameasy

Feminism made women like you think that it’s a “problem” when being a wife and mother is a woman’s only goal”. That is misogyny. Why is it a problem? It’s the one thing a female can do that a man can’t yet you denigrate it.

Sorry but again you have not understood misogyny. Misogyny means people who dislike women or believe them to be inferior.

I don’t think it’s a problem if women decide to focus on rearing children. I think it’s a problem if that is the only role society supports them having.

I’m very happy for women to devote their lives to raising children but I am not going to be told I am inferior or deficient because I want more.

Your claim about “traditional” sex roles is also inaccurate. Throughout most of history most women have been obliged to work alongside their men. It’s only really in the past 60 or 70 years that women working was seen as a bad thing and that’s largely status as opposed to biology.

You are very welcome to live a traditional life and not be a feminist. I am a feminist but I realise people have different perspectives on how they want to run their lives. But you are wrong to say feminists see themselves as “victims”. I see myself as anything but a victim. I have far more agency over my life than I would if I were dependent on a man.

Regarding women who are masculine:

I am a masculine womn and have no problem with finding men who are interested in me.

You are speaking absolute nonsense and look like an idiot.

NB: I am not masculine because I am high achieving or have a career I love. I am masculine because I have chosen to present myself as masculine.

Off topic but i have a huge pool of friends who graduated finance / law in 2000s and are now 40ish ane qll have 2-3 kids and all
Women work FT and are exec / MD level in banks or consultancies or brokers now

All married equal
Men who pull their 50%. Lots of dads on school run.

All neighbours bir older 40/50s all have two high earner partners.

This is N London. I dont know any childless women from school uni work at all! This 'masculine women' is from Hollywood not reality.

Im away in Ibiza at present and its all dads and grandads watching the kids

I know a few childless men, all short / low earner / not attractive. Misogyny not an issue!!

I know a few childless men, all short / low earner / not attractive. Misogyny not an issue!!

Misandry seems to be though.

@KimberleyClark Im saying that to explain why theyre single after 20 odd yrs of dating .. all these men are not woman haters quite the opposite but more male version of 'left on the shelf'

Those are not the reasons they are single.

Your particular point of view assumes that people get with someone and stay with them for life. For some people that is not desirable, or convenient.

Maybe I feel that way though because I, too, am 'left on the shelf' and without children. 😂

”There's such a huge mismatch in expectations that many I know are just opting out of dating altogether.”

Is this actually true?
I’m not asking to be a bitch, I’m just asking because I’d live to find friends are choosing to stay single/childfree, also I’ve seen so many articles about women opting out relationships, but I just don’t see it in real life.
Most women still want a man, will do anything and tolerate anything to have a man….

Maybe in your world but certainly not in mine!!!

@OnedayTwodays

Is this actually true?
I’m not asking to be a bitch, I’m just asking because I’d live to find friends are choosing to stay single/childfree, also I’ve seen so many articles about women opting out relationships, but I just don’t see it in real life.
Most women still want a man, will do anything and tolerate anything to have a man

I thibk it’s quite age sensitive. Women of childbearing age are subject to such huge pressures around this a lot of them are persuaded they need a man (obviously if you want to have kids that’s a fairly acute consideration).

When you get to my age (early 50s) you see a lot of divorces and separations, most of which are driven by women waking up to what a shit deal marriage is, At this age a lot of us embrace single life with great joy.

I have about half a dozen good friends who have divorced and some of them are dating but not one has remarried which is anecdotal obviously but I think significant.

The real shame is that women often have to go through being married to realise what a raw deal it often is for women.

Women are able to be much more honest about this today and many of us thankfully don’t have to rely on men for money which has liberated lots of us to be honest about it.

That’s amazing to hear.

I hope it starts to become more of a thing in the future.

I’m not sure why bother saying ’older’ women, after divorce and kids choose to remain single.
That’s kind of besides the point, isin’t it.
They already did what they are supposed to do, it’s not the same as always staying single and being childfree from young age.

Not in my world either. In fact I only have two friends with children, the rest are childfree - some through choice, others through not meeting a suitable partner. One friend would like a husband and family but keeps going on duff dates and is unwilling to compromise (which is how it should be) so she froze her eggs with a view to being a solo parent. Another friend is in her first ever relationship at 30 - all she wanted before that was sex and fun and turned down a few men who wanted to make things more serious. Another broke up with a LTR a couple of years ago and isn’t interested in dating. Other more distant acquaintances are only just getting married after over 10 years together. I definitely don’t see desperation to keep a man at any cost among people I know.

The purpose of any species is to reproduce, not for 'joy' or whatever each individual classifies as 'happiness'. Plus with the population decline most people will have no choice but to work themselves to the grave because their won't be in an infrastructure which allows them to have the option to retire, the retirement age will need to be increased and there's most likely going to be an increase in elderly homelessness in the next 20-40 years to come (look up California and Japan for reference). Either way future generations will need to find a way to be self sufficient so they don't have to take on the burden of higher tax bills to take care of the majority ageing population.

To each their own if you want to stay childless, not marry and be celibate there's nothing wrong with that but there's a universal reason why we celebrate and encourage healthy couples getting married (yes marriage is the sign of a committed and secure couple-not just living together and playing house) and having healthy and secure children to help progress, improve and sustain society.

And being single, childfree and celibate is also healthy.
And that should be equally celebrated and supported.

Ps: I have to say I totally forgot making this thread and when it pop-up, I thought: What a fascinating topic, gotta see! 😆