To wonder why relationship, marriage and kids are still seen as a ’ successful’ life?

[OnedayTwodays]

Reading here and also IRL so many people, still, thinks that this the ’LifePlan’ everyone not only wants, but must have.

Some thread about perhaps not so nice people, people say it brings them joy to know they end up alone and old - as in being single is seen as some kind of a punishment.

Single, or god forbid if your childfree, stilm have to explain why.
Say your single and when asked you say you don’t hook up or having casual arrangement or whatever, and people look at you like you have two heads.

Will we ever move on and stop assuming everyone wants/lives the same way?
Will the stigma ever go away?

Why is it that even now being in a relationship/kids is seen the proper, mature, right way to live?

I think the reason why it is seen as successful - when everything is going well- is because it requires a good amount of good luck, inter-personal skill and effort to find somebody who you would happily spend a lifetime with, build a long a stable marriage, have children, meet their needs and launch them successfully into the world.

This idea that people mindlessly walk into this Life Plan with their eyes shut because they are too stupid to think of alternatives might make for a compelling narrative but it ignores the amount of ambition, drive, effort and sacrifice that individuals are willing to sink into its pursuit.

@readbooksdrinktea it’s very realistic if you work hard on your relationship (providing you are in a safe, non abusive, non toxic relationship with someone that respects and cares about you). And “for life” I’m talking about whether you meet them at 20 or 50, if you have found someone willing to work through the shit that is life with you for the rest of your life then that is a success. People don’t seem to realise that relationships are work, the lovey dovey phase will end, the mundane sets in and that is where the work starts.

I agree with OP, there are many ways to live a good life & unlike previous generations of women, we can do so, but there is still a lot of negativity around those who don't follow the 'traditional route'.

I couldn't have children, it was upsetting but tbh, I was never someone who couldn't wait to have children, I assumed it would happen sometime, so when it didn't, it wasn't as devastating as it was for others. I have been hurt but some remarks of others who think the way I live my life is lesser because of this.

Re old age, having supported my mum & then my FIL in the slow steady decline into advanced dementia, having children is no guarantee of support & companionship in frail old age. I spent lots of time with my lovely mum, taking her out, keeping her amused in the early days, sorting out all the issues that arise with Alzheimer's then visiting her alternate days in her care home where was very happy,

My SIL, one of my biggest critics for being childless (she never believed I couldn't have them & was convinced it was a lifestyle choice - not that it matters either way but she was always incredibly hurtful) who was always saying 'you'll regret it when you're old, you'll be so lonely' did sweet f**k all for her dad, even though she lived 5 miles away compared to our 250. She rarely visited him when he was widowed & lonely, even though she works very part time, & had no other commitments (divorced, no partner, grown up children moved away) so we spent a long weekend a month with him, every crisis, we sorted out, hospital appts, one of us took a couple of days off to be able to get up there to take him, care home, same issues etc.....

Sadly some people will always judge & some will also be hypocrites. Some cannot see there is any other way to be happy & fulfilled but their way & some are envious as, due to my career, I've got to see the inside of many marriages/partnerships - and that often tells a different tale to what they initially say or portray! As a childless couple, we've really planned our old age as we can't rely on anyone to be our advocates & don't want to be lonely but that's another post!

Honestly, perfect last paragraph. I understand why people who are single by choice get defensive, I do think they face a lot of flak unnecessarily, but then the opposite narrative that those of us who have kids and a marriage and brain washed fools is really annoying. Raising kids and maintaining good interpersonal relationships are massively underrated skills.

When I hear about people hoping their enemies end up ”old and alone”, I never interpreted that as “unmarried and childless”, so much as “everyone has worked out what a cunt they are, even their spouse and kids, and wants nothing to do with them”. It’s often said by people on here about their abusive/neglectful mothers, for one thing.

Perfectly possible to be old, unmarried, childless and surrounded by warmth and friendship. Probably requires more active effort than sitting back and enjoying your grandchildren, but I find childless people are generally pretty good at maintaining friendships.

This idea that people mindlessly walk into this Life Plan with their eyes shut because they are too stupid to think of alternatives might make for a compelling narrative but it ignores the amount of ambition, drive, effort and sacrifice that individuals are willing to sink into its pursuit.

I have increasingly noticed this narrative.

I always wanted kids - I wasn't looking for a guy when I met DH at uni neither of us stopped having our own goals but made sure we both wanted similar things long term while having fun - then slowly worked towards them increasingly as a team. As kid were a priority had them as early as we feasibly could - very late 20 and 30 - nearly a decade before many of our university educated peers.

Strangely also noticed many men discussing depopulation cite people saying they always meant to have kids but it just never happened for them and then they were too old - more as if this life plan was just supposed to happen. Personally I have my doubts and suspect more ambivalence about kids but some social reluctance about admitting that.

I've been single for 5 years (I'm 30) and I do not plan on changing that. I love it. I have a good social life, my own home and a good job. 2 amazing children. To me, I have succeeded and will continue to. I'm happy.

I know more unhappy married people than single. I've been told so many times to never get married. I have no intention to, it's just not in my plans.

Because genes that inspire procreation will inherit the earth

Nah, procreation doesn’t happen to preserve genes. They’re a means to an end and are jettisoned when no longer useful.

I think the reason why it is seen as successful - when everything is going well- is because it requires a good amount of good luck, inter-personal skill and effort to find somebody who you would happily spend a lifetime with, build a long a stable marriage, have children, meet their needs and launch them successfully into the world.

I think it’s more a question of why people (well, women) are often not seen as successful if they choose not to do these things, no matter what else they may have achieved or how happy they may be.

YABU to care in the slightliest about what others think of your life choices.
My family is what gives meaning to my life, but I get it is not for all.
I think a mayority of people has a strong internal wish to have a family and much of their happiness depends on this.

But, there is no right or wrong. Horses for courses and all that.

Because it works well for most! We are programmed to reproduce. Most women have strong biological urges. Getting married signifies that you are making a big commitment and, in most cases, have given it some serious though. Raising children is not easy so it's better to work together financially and support each other when raising them. Those 'rules' are there to try and make life easier. If you don't want children or would prefer to be single, then I don't see what the issue is. I have lots of friends who have chosen not to follow the usual route and are very happy.

i think this contributes to why so many people (not all, I know) are unhappy. We’re conditioned into finding a ‘happy & secure’ partnership. However, there’s a high number of these partnerships aren’t actually happy.

I am 100% happy being single, I’m not against being in a relationship but I refuse to be in a mediocre one that doesn’t enhance my life.

I wouldn’t want to be without my child though.

I am the only one I know my age (late thirties) who is single with no kids. People do pity me and judge. It is sad that in 2023, these attitudes still exist. As if women are here solely to recreate and marry and if not, they have failed or are seen as a bit weird. Very depressing.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Lots of women are lauded for their success and their marital status doesn't come into it at all. Successful sportswomen, women in business, women in tech, artists, writers, poets etc. I just read an article celebrating a Bletchley Park codebreaker who has passed away, I don't think her marital status was mentioned at all, it was focused on her achievements.

Sometimes a happy, supportive relationship is seen as the cherry on top of a successful life but I've never heard a successful woman being discussed and people go 'oh but she isn't married'. Nor have I heard of anyone being deemed successful purely on the basis of marriage.

A lot of people do want this: the problem with this though is that a vanilla LTR relationship actually doesn't automatically provide this. In a best case scenario it will but in a lot of cases it won't. And we can get a lot of tht sense of being loved and validated outside of a LTR.

You might argue each to their own and of course that's true people will always want this and who's to say they shouldn't. And up to a point that's fine, the problem is the emphasis. A very large number of people chase this "comfy relationship feeling", believing it will magic all their problems away. Of course sometimes it does, but lots of settled LTRs don't provide "that comfy relationship feeling" at all, they provide at best humdrum, frustrated compromise and at worst abuse or neglect. I don't want to mischaracterise this because that's not all relationships. But these talk boards demonstrate that a very large amount of LTRs are pretty suboptimal.

But because they are sold to us as the one thing which will make us feel whole, we pursue it even when its not in our best interests and lack the filter to identify whether it's actually the right thing for us.

And for women in particular this matters because a lot of us pursue this above all else and prioritise finding a relationship even when its quite often not in our best interests.

Look at Jo frost though. People saying 'Well she doesn't have kids so how could she know?' Or feeling sorry for her.

I certainly wasn’t put on this planet solely to procreate! Life is about so much more than breeding…oh my god, how regressive is that thought process?!

I think the reason why it is seen as successful - when everything is going well- is because it requires a good amount of good luck, inter-personal skill and effort to find somebody who you would happily spend a lifetime with, build a long a stable marriage, have children, meet their needs and launch them successfully into the world.

I'm not sure I agree with this. That's an optimistic assessment. And in very rare cases it's true.

In practice though maintaining a LTR often just means you've reached a point in your life where you feel you should be in a relationship or you're ready to start a family and have found someone who is "good enough" that you can work with them. That's a combination of life stage and circumstance with, ideally, a bit of sexual chemistry and compatibility thrown in. But a lot of people go with "they'll do" and just make it work (unless or until it doesn't).

A certain degree of compromise and diplomacy is important to keep the wheels turning. But as long as someone is attractive enough at baseline to date in the first place and compatible enough to live with and parent with you there are an infinite number of options for people you could have settled down with. Its very much muddle along and make it work.

I don't think maintaining relationships requires any particular degree of interpersonal skill other than consideration, a bit of basic self-maintenance and diplomacy. And quite a lot of patience. And women are socialised to believe that this is mainly their job, so their threshold for tolerating substandard behaviour from their male partners is set to let a lot of things slide. Something which is reinforced by the fact they're often economically tied into the relationship after a certain point.

So I don't think there's any great skill to this.

Man, who hurt you? It's obvious you have never had a fun, enjoyable long term relationship but loads of people do. It kind of goes back to what the OP said doesn't it? Just because it isn't something you have experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'm really lucky that I have had so many good relationship role models in my life, I know so many couples that have really lovely relationships. Both sets of my grandparents were deeply in love until the end and it was so evident. My parents are really happy after 40 years of marriage. Lot of extended family too. It's really sad that you haven't witnessed just how great and uplifting the right relationship can be.

I think it depends on your social network, local attitudes, and to an extent, class. Around here being successful is all about having a successful career, having travelled extensively, having secure finances and having interesting and challenging hobbies. Nobody really cares if you have children or are married. I'm happily married with dc and I'm seen as unsuccessful because I've never had an exciting career and haven't had adventurous travelling experiences. Obviously if you live in nappy valley in some middle class suburb, then the focus will be more on relationships and family. But there are broader attitudes in more diverse parts of the country.

Just because it isn't something you have experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

That goes both ways though.

Since you prefer to be in a relationship I think you may have a hard time understanding that some are happy enough single?
Hence the well -most- people -want -what- I want type of comments and assuming the pp you responded to, who had a more cynical view of relationships, is a poor unfortunate to be pitied.

Nobody really cares if you have children or are married.

This is so foreigner to it’s crazy.
But good to know there are places / people where this is a thing.

Everyone seems to only care that women (no one really cares what men do, they are allowed to be single and/or childfree) have boyfriends/when are you getting married/have kids.
Seems like nothing else matters.

And the quality of men don’t matter, as long as you got one.
Does the wlman even want kids? Doesn’t matter - she must have them.

It always suprises me that even now prtners and kids are the only thing women are valued for.
Well, looks also.
Things just don’t seem to move on at all.

I don't recognize that. I see women valued for all sorts of achievements. Even many of us in long marriages with kids had a life before them filled with achievements, you know? And even with them, right?

I can more than understand that some women prefer to be single, that some women prefer to remain child free. It is, after all, a growing demographic.

And there will always be arseholes, just discount them from the off. As many people who would tell you that you are failing at womanhood in one way would express a shitty attitude to all the other permutations of being a woman. That's the great leveller among all women, there's always someone waiting to tell you you are doing a shit job of it.

@SnowflakeCity

Man, who hurt you? It's obvious you have never had a fun, enjoyable long term relationship but loads of people do. It kind of goes back to what the OP said doesn't it? Just because it isn't something you have experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I've had plenty of fun, enjoyable long term relationships, thanks, I'm in a fun, happy LTR now.

You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that because I've got a critical perspective on the premise that everyone should want to be in a LTR that I must be bitter. I'm not, I'm just criticising your point of view.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in a LTR per se, what I'm arguing is that this is set up as a goal to which everyone should aspire (particularly women) and something which will bring you happiness in and of itself.

I'm arguing that a) that's not necessarily the case and b) this is a dangerous objective to have because it funnels people into thinking they must prioritise a LTR above all the other things which they could work towards which may potentially make them happier. And it also leads to the sort of judgement seen in spades on this thread.

Not at all. My best friend of 20 years is happy and single, she is 50 now and I have never seen her in a relationship. She is the cheeriest person I know! She has a wonderful full life. She is a very stark contrast to the poster who is extremely cynical. She gave a very moving eulogy at her father's funeral recently speaking about the great love between her parents, they were together over 50 years. She knows that relationships can be often times amazing but relationships just aren't for her and good on her for recognising that.

I don't think that that level of cynism and pessimism is a sign of a happy person with a healthy view of relationships and yeah I think it's a shame. I think it is a shame to have such cynism about many things. You can have a healthy view of relationships and choose not to partake. These views are not exclusive of each other. Just like you a healthy view of being single but choose to stay married.