To wonder why relationship, marriage and kids are still seen as a ’ successful’ life?

[OnedayTwodays]

Reading here and also IRL so many people, still, thinks that this the ’LifePlan’ everyone not only wants, but must have.

Some thread about perhaps not so nice people, people say it brings them joy to know they end up alone and old - as in being single is seen as some kind of a punishment.

Single, or god forbid if your childfree, stilm have to explain why.
Say your single and when asked you say you don’t hook up or having casual arrangement or whatever, and people look at you like you have two heads.

Will we ever move on and stop assuming everyone wants/lives the same way?
Will the stigma ever go away?

Why is it that even now being in a relationship/kids is seen the proper, mature, right way to live?

I’m not sure it is, maybe a while ago but I’ve never thought of it like that. The women I know who are single without kids in their 40’s seem pretty happy to me. It only occurred to me that I know quite a few without partner/kids when I was reading up on demographic decline. I imagine a successful life is the one where you are happy with how it’s panning out.

I keep seeing these threads about how everyone is judging or pitying single women. Hand on my heart I’ve never thought of any single woman that way.

That's the great leveller among all women, there's always someone waiting to tell you you are doing a shit job of it

Lol, that’s very true. You can’t win really.

I think it's because human beings are fundamentally social creatures. We crave connection with others. However, who those others are and how many of them there are is very dependent on many variables, such as personality, experience, lifestyle. People who have zero connection with anyone are unusual, often struggle socially, and most people find them off putting.

For much of modern human history, families have been the building block of society and so it's become the norm for us to assume this is the same thing as successful social relationships. Society has a vested history in maintaining this idea (women families provide an awful lot of unpaid labour fundamental to society's success). Truth is there are many ways.

@SnowflakeCity

My best friend of 20 years is happy and single, she is 50 now and I have never seen her in a relationship. She is the cheeriest person I know! She has a wonderful full life. She is a very stark contrast to the poster who is extremely cynical.

I assume this is directed at me: why is my perspective cynical? I've just said that while LTRs may make people happy they are not a panacea and people tend to overvalue them.

You've contradicted your own argument here by talking about your friend who is happy and single, so clearly being in a LTR isn't always the be all and end all.

It's possible both to believe that LTRs can be life enhancing while also thinking that in general the pursuit of them is overvalued and people would do themselves a favour by focusing on a broader range of life goals.

Look I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being, or wanting to be, in a LTR. But I do think people (and women in particular) tend to place more importance and emphasis on them than is healthy and that they underestimate the enjoyment and value that you can get from being on your own and deriving your happiness and validation from a broader range of sources. I don't think that's cynical, I think it's life-affirming.

People who have zero connection with anyone are unusual, often struggle socially, and most people find them off putting.

Well if they have zero interest in anyone I guess it doesn’t matter 😂
I think there’s a bit of middle ground between “zero connection with anyone” and “doesn’t want a family”though

I worked in nursing homes all the way through college and university. The vast majority of people who visited the residents were old friends and neighbours, vicars and other folk from church, golfing/bowling pals, fellow Rotarians/Lions/Soroptimists etc. In other words, connections that had been forged from something other than blood and obligation. Visiting children were few and far between.

Just what I was going to say. There are numerous posts on MN every single day which highlights people who are in relationships which are anything but "comfy".

And there are lots of threads by people who are unhappily single and lonely, far more than threads started by people saying how much they love being single. That's no way to live is it?

So nobody should then be judged for being single or pitied. There is not one relationship that I see in my day to day life which I would want to be in or that I envy. Many women seem to make a lot of sacrifices to keep their men happy.

You've contradicted your own argument here by talking about your friend who is happy and single, so clearly being in a LTR isn't always the be all and end all.

I'd only be contradicting my own argument if I actually said anywhere that being in a relationship was any where near the be all and end all I've said relationships can be lovely, that's why lots of people crave them. People can also be happily single and successful. Two things can be true.

I think, regardless of how much we have evolved, we all have a basic need to connect with others, to have meaningful relationships with people we love and who love us. Even our brain development as babies depends on this.

As adults, we can get some of these things with friends, but I think being in a relationship with a significant other will meet that need in us more than friendships ever could.

I was raised by a single mum and I have no doubt that she was lonely at times. Having someone to share your life with, the good bits and the bad, brings security and sense of belonging that being single doesn’t necessarily bring.

That’s not to say you can’t be happy being single - of course you can.

You say that, but species do top out eventually, and I think that might be what’s happening to us, in which case, it’s also our purpose now to slow down on the reproduction front, in order to preserve the species in the longer term!

Thing is - you're posting on mumsnet. Why?
They've only created a childfree board as it increases traffic.

Having children has forfilled my life more than my successful job and Iove being married. But you have to be married to the right person.

What would you regard as a successful life OP?

I think the nuclear family is the way in which society and government (and individuals) finds structure and organisation. It suits those in charge to have people organised into neat clusters.

They have a very funny way of showing it (with their housing and childcare policies) but the government also want to ensure the next generation is born for both economic growth and to pay the pensions of those before them. What To Expect When No One’s Expecting is an interesting read.

People often have a need to belong to something, to define themselves, and many will slip easily into judging others who do not ‘belong’ (classic tribal behaviour) which perpetuates the idea this model is ‘correct’. Particularly as PP said, those from religious or very conventional backgrounds where it’s baked in early. Girls are given dolls with the implied assumption this is their natural destiny.

I've been on MN for several years, and in that time I have seen far, far, more threads from people in shit relationships than single people who are miserable.

That sounds like something from the dark ages

Because IF you manage it right; good partner, good income, healthy lifestyle then when shitty stuff happens (and it always does) you most likely have a good balance and increased resiliency.

I don't understand your reasoning. No judgement here, no expectation that others will follow that pattern. If you don't and are happy, great. But the majority do. Why is that? It's not just how we are raised. We are sociable creatures and being loved fulfils a need in most of us. So to have relationships makes sense.

I’m on my 40s, have a partner and don’t have children. I lived a fairly independent life and whilst I have had those moments where I have seen babies and think oh how lovely they are - it made me realise all the work and money that goes into raising them. I actually came to the conclusion in my mid thirties that I didn’t want any. And I think this is because I’m not willing to give up all the things I enjoy. I also think I would end up resenting a child if my life changed in that way so it’s better that I don’t have one.

I do think perceptions are changing as many women I know don’t have children or intend to have any. To be honest some of the threads I’ve read on here regarding marriage, children and finances have confirmed to me it’s the right choice for me.

I know two people who are single and without children and they would love to be in relationships but it hasn't worked out for them. They're not desperate for children but they feel lonely and would have loved marriage.
Even health experts are recognising that loneliness is a health risk.
We are social beings and thrive in communities and with connections. If you don't have intimate connections then you need to rely on other connections especially those in your community. Those connections can't always fulfil all the needs someone has, especially if most around them aren't freely available due to their own intimate connections.

Biologically she is correct. As is the case for all living things. The sole outcome of every lifecycle is to have offspring and pass on genetic material.
Humans have socially evolved so that the urge can be overcome by our brains, circumstances and other opportunities.
The biological urge is very strong though.
For the survival of a species it’s imperative to assume that all females want to breed and produce the next generation.

And there are lots of threads by people who are unhappily single and lonely, far more than threads started by people saying how much they love being single

Are there? I’ve seen some obviously but not “lots”.
There are more threads from women who are in unhappy, or worse, abusive relationships.

Biologically she is correct. As is the case for all living things. The sole outcome of every lifecycle is to have offspring and pass on genetic material.
Humans have socially evolved so that the urge can be overcome by our brains, circumstances and other opportunities.
The biological urge is very strong though.
For the survival of a species it’s imperative to assume that all females want to breed and produce the next generation

You don’t know the urge is biological though. It might be psychological. I wanted children when I was younger but when I realised/decided it probably wasn’t a good idea (for me) the urge went away never to return.

As for “the survival of the species” I don’t think population levels are at an all time low rn.

Shouldn’t there then be a big support for single and/or childfree people?

If they are ’lacking’ so much and are ’unhealthy’ because they don’t have these things?

Instead of looking down on them?
Thinking they are less than.