To wonder why relationship, marriage and kids are still seen as a ’ successful’ life?

[OnedayTwodays]

Reading here and also IRL so many people, still, thinks that this the ’LifePlan’ everyone not only wants, but must have.

Some thread about perhaps not so nice people, people say it brings them joy to know they end up alone and old - as in being single is seen as some kind of a punishment.

Single, or god forbid if your childfree, stilm have to explain why.
Say your single and when asked you say you don’t hook up or having casual arrangement or whatever, and people look at you like you have two heads.

Will we ever move on and stop assuming everyone wants/lives the same way?
Will the stigma ever go away?

Why is it that even now being in a relationship/kids is seen the proper, mature, right way to live?

To be clear, I do have adult DC, but am long term single.

Yes, maybe I am lucky, but it certainly isn't a thing in my social groups.

I'm late 50s.
It was having older siblings myself that met their partners in their teens, married and had children/ mortgages etc that seemed to convince me I had to do the same ( plus having older parents who believed in the sanctity of marriage and settling down ) I suppose I felt there wasn't any other route tbh and many my age now say the same , it seemed a destined path (almost) for Dh and I and our friends.
My son ( 20s) has made it clear he doesn't want this kind of lifestyle and I agree with him. He should live his life how he wants to. He doesn't want the responsibility of children ( or the costs)
I feel that some people ( as I was ) are kind of 'brainwashed ' a bit to believe it's the right thing to do. It did work out for me, but people are less likely to be like this these days, they want a different lifestyle I think. Being child free must have many advantages too.

But judgement happens to EVERYONE all the time. In my circles I experience and see no more judgement towards single people or those without children than I do judgement towards those who don't work, or those who are overweight for example. This is not to say it does not happen- but more to say OF COURSE it happens. Because some people feel the need to evangelize their way of life...whether that be married, single, vegan, family, fat, thin etc etc.

It's the same as men in that regard though testosterone I think makes the sex drive even stronger for men. However, they do not generally want children more than women. If a woman is raped she is still likely to have a child (before BC/contraception & abortion) as if it was consensual. Children are a result of sex. Society has/had a vested interest in ensuring women wanted to continue having children hence all this "urge" stuff.

No, I don't think women are taught that they see it. They know that they mostly will carry the load in the household and be the primary carer of children. And those who don't want that now have a choice to forgo it. Not just my opinion but studies show that in heterosexual relationships women regardless of whether they work or not will do more housework and childcare. In freeer societies, women can speak more openly about their struggles too so you can see both sides. When you consider damage to your body via childbirth, unequal domestic load, climate change, etc etc there are many many things that can influence an educated woman and will be part of informing her choice.

Education and choice have changed things for women.

I feel I should have thought more about my choices tbh, but things were different back then I think , it seemed more of a destined route somehow ? Or maybe just amongst my peers ?
( I really was naïve as well though)

Well, we are fundamentally organisms so the sensible conclusion would be that it is a biological urge.

Your choice to not have children was a psychological decision. We are not simple organisms so I imagine this would would be enough to override the biological urge if you so choose

It doesn’t sound very powerful if you can just choose to ignore it. I think it’s more likely to do with social conditioning. A biological urge would affect everyone the same but if it was more a case of cultural norms it would depend on what ideas you were exposed to when young.

I mean when I think of biological urges I think of things like hunger or the need to sleep not lifestyle choices.

Um. Its basically biology. The assumption is that as a living creature we have an inbuilt desire to reproduce, and not doing so is essentially a form of failure.

To reproduce requires a partner, and the involvement of fathers in rearing children is one of the key things that makes humans so successful as species, so we similarly revere marriage/couplehood as a means to the long term survival of the human race.

I agree but I also think that as a species we're evolving beyond our basic biology. So yes we urge to reproduce (or at least have sex) but at the same time many take steps not to reproduce by using contraception etc. So yes, we can acknowledge why humans have favoured the marriage with children set up but also acknowledge that we are no longer slaves either to biology or society's conventions.

Um. Its basically biology.

Not necessarily.

Actually no. At the end of the day genes that support reproduction are what end up in the next generation. It's nothing new to have significant parts of society not reproducing, look at all the monks and nuns in the past, but whatever great and valid choices we make with our lives, the next generation comprises of those with parents that choose children (or at least unsafe sex).

I wanted to get married and have children because I wanted a family, not because I regarded it as embodying success. I'm not especially interested in success, I'm interested in being happy.

Humans are animals. It's not about 'having been put on the planet for the purpose of having babies' (I'm an atheist an don't believe we were put anywhere by anyone or that we have a purpose), but the vast majority of us have a drive to find a mate and procreate, however much we like to dress that up in romance and lifestyle choices. Anyone who judges women by whether or not they've 'bagged a man' or had children is an utter twat though.

The statistics show very strongly that women with more education have fewer children, across the developed and developing world. And it’s at the individual level and at the level of whole populations — countries with more sex equality in education, income, political and social power have lower birth rates. No societies have high fertility and low sex inequality.

Women with choices, knowledge and power choose to have fewer or no children.

Actually no. At the end of the day genes that support reproduction are what end up in the next generation. It's nothing new to have significant parts of society not reproducing, look at all the monks and nuns in the past, but whatever great and valid choices we make with our lives, the next generation comprises of those with parents that choose children (or at least unsafe sex.

What’s your point?

I'm not in the UK, but I have reached the age of 64 without encountering this stigma about single and childless women. I can't recall anyone ever making a comment to me about my choices, and my parents never once mentioned it to me either - I was married for a few years, but had no intention of having children - and I'm an only child, so no grandchildren for them. I know that my DF would have loved to have had GC, but he never said a thing. For all I know people may pity/judge me but they've not done it to my face. I was happily single both before and after my marriage. You have not "failed" your parents, and they can't make you feel a failure, only you can do that.

I just remembered I had something to add about having kids so you are "not alone in your old age."

A friend has moved 300 miles to get away from her elderly parents. Because she is the only sibling who is single and child-free, she could predict being railroaded into moving into their house and being their full time carer, possibly for 20 years or more. She does not want that so strategically she moved far away and took a demanding and important job, so of course she cannot possibly move back home.

I think she is wise because my boyfriend, who moved back home after a live-in relationship ended, got trapped there and, 25 years on, now aged 66, is a full time carer for his 90-yr-old mother. He has no life of his own save a few short hours a week.

I am in my late fifties and have never experienced any criticism or negativity around being single.

If anything, my married friends are pretty jealous of my freedom, the lack of having to compromise on every little thing, the absence of ILS 😂

Maybe it’s the people you mix with OP? You would have to be thick as shit to look down on someone because they had made different life choices from you (or not had those choices)

''@Siameasy

Procreating is the only reason we are here''

Daft.

Usually this argument seemed to be used by religious nuts or people who have achieved next to nothing in their life and can only manage to define themselves by the fact that they have kids, so they try to make everyone else think this is the ultimate self-realisation/life goal. It really isn't...

Exactly! I only disagree that women are taught not to have children rather it is a side effect of education and choice.

I think the truth is somewhere in between.

All biological organisms are programmed at cellular level to try to reproduce. Human beings are no exception. However, the process resulting in the behaviour through which that manifests is complex. In humans it's more the urge to have sex than it is to actually create another human being. The psychological longing to be a parent owes a huge amount to social conditioning, but let's not pretend that it's easy to override that. Social conditioning influences almost every part of our lives. It's why most of us don't stab people we have disagreements with or simply queue in lines waiting to get served, for example. It's powerful stuff!

Fortunately, in the UK, where contraception and education offer alternatives, women have more opportunities to break free from the effects of the biological urge to have sex working in combination with the social driver to be a mother. Although not all women have the same access to this even here.

I know this is true at a general level but I'm just thinking of the families I know with 4 or more children. They are all highly educated career women (lawyers, doctors and a barrister). I think the middle classes are definitely having fewer children but actually those who are very wealthy sometimes have quite large families. I suppose if you can afford a cleaner, nanny, gardener, a nice big house etc life is just easier.

I mean, this site is called Mumsnet for a reason 🤷‍♀️ going to have anlot of heavy bias towards having kiddies.

@SallyWD ive noticed this too

I wonder if highly educated women do still have children but more likely <4, whereas historically they would have had limited education and perhaps 5+ ?

As every single woman I know from uni in 2000s has had 1-3 children, and 95% of the men had kids. Most common is 1 girl, 1 boy. And all these are high powered £200k + joint income couples

I dont meet these highly educated childless women. Perhaps theyre not in finance and are in another sector eg creative, public sector ?

And the men we know who are 40 odd and childless are sad about it and panicking want to meet women 35+ yo marry (not players).

The vast majority of people I work with (v educated professionals) have large double salaries and 3 or 4 kids. I know a few with 5 and a few with 2. None with only 1.

I do think there’s a more nuanced argument around class divides and level of education etc.

As for the pity, every year when I’m rotaed to work Christmas, the mums in my team make exaggerated sad faces and tell me I need to get cracking on having a family so that I can avoid working it like they do. They seem to think it’s hilarious. I can give a list of rude and callous comments I’ve had over the years but that one just winds me the fuck up.

I was happily child free for the first 37 years of my life. I cannot remember anyone every commenting on it. I do sometimes think people mistake small talk for digs.

You see this is why I think feminism is misogynistic if this is where we are now.

Why has someone “achieved nothing in their life” if they’ve dedicated their life to being a wife and mother? That statement is so anti-female. Being a wife and mother is a wonderful thing.

To take up another point, high achieving women are not “choosing” to end up unmarried and childless. They are finding it hard to find a husband because men inherently don’t like masculine women. A high achieving woman’s dating pool will be reduced because most women want a man who earns more. The stats prove it. High achieving women are ending up childless.