To wonder why relationship, marriage and kids are still seen as a ’ successful’ life?

[OnedayTwodays]

Reading here and also IRL so many people, still, thinks that this the ’LifePlan’ everyone not only wants, but must have.

Some thread about perhaps not so nice people, people say it brings them joy to know they end up alone and old - as in being single is seen as some kind of a punishment.

Single, or god forbid if your childfree, stilm have to explain why.
Say your single and when asked you say you don’t hook up or having casual arrangement or whatever, and people look at you like you have two heads.

Will we ever move on and stop assuming everyone wants/lives the same way?
Will the stigma ever go away?

Why is it that even now being in a relationship/kids is seen the proper, mature, right way to live?

You haven't answered my question about what you see as a "successful life" OP.

For me a "successful life" would mean the person was content with their activity, health, and connectedness, in whatever form all of those things take.

Agree with the above PP. Everyone has different parameters of success. Some might be more influenced by societal expectations than others. I also had to really stop and think when I saw one of the posts saying there is no stigma against being single and childfree etc, because I often find myself on these threads agreeing vehemently that there shouldn’t be a stigma and women should be encouraged to be more than wives and mothers etc.

And I absolutely think we should be - but I have to agree that in my personal experience I haven’t seen or been on the receiving end of stigma. My parents didn’t push traditional values on me, I can count on less than three fingers the times I’ve been asked if I have/want kids and why not, I’m not the only childfree person in my friendship circle (in fact the parents I know are in a minority) and I engage with a lot of writing, media etc that extols the virtues of different lifestyles that aren’t based around marriage and kids. So actually there is an awful lot of material, options, like minded people out there for those who don’t want that.

So I have to ask myself why I’m often here saying yes absolutely women need alternative messaging! I guess I hear from friends who feel they have been judged or stigmatised or feel the pressure to conform, or the many women on here who say they feel the odd one out. When I really think about it though I think there are ample options for women who don’t want the traditional life but I do think it’s demographic and location dependent and requires being well off enough to rent/buy as a single person and have money for other indulgences. I might feel very different if I still lived in my hometown

Your first assertion is 100% incorrect. Many post-menopausal or post-hysterectomy women still have a strong urge to have sex, how can that be their body "telling them it wants to have a baby" when that same body has no eggs, or no womb with which to make one?

And if you have and urge to have sex at all then that is your body telling you it’s wants to have a baby!

Completely disagree.

I like sex, quite a lot. Never in my life have I had the urge to have a baby. As in never. I don't think I'm some unique specimen.

The very best thing anyone could do for the planet is not have any children.

I think people just ask why you're not in a relationship or don't have children because it's more unusual and also they're nosey.

I had a very interesting convo with a woman of 42 who told me she was "desperate" to have a child before it was too late. Her problem was that she works a minimum wage job, scraping by from week to week, and had not had a boyfriend for years.

I'm 65 and childless by choice, so I "sort of" counselled her, asking questions ot try to tease out of her exactly why she wanted a child. We talked for about an hour and the reasons she gave me were entirely a result of social expectation - which surprised me, as I expected her to cite a biological imperative. But no, her reasons were social: one was that all her siblings had kids and the cousins were all close friends who frequently interacted, went on holidays together, etc and so she felt left out of the fun. Another was that her mother frequently remarked with a glum expression on her childless state and constantly asked when she was going to find a nice boy and give her some grandchildren. Yet another was that "everybody" (she meant society) saw a childless woman as a failure in life and as unnatural and selfish, and she did not want to be seen that way.

I must confess, by the end of this heart-to-heart I had actually lost a lot of respect for her because every reason she had amounted to accepting and bowing down to social pressure.

I don't see it as a flag of success.
My personal idea of success is raising my three children, two with SN and one with mental health issues on my own, independently without input from
a disinterested and useless husband and father. An angry, unhappy aggressive mean man who isn't happy unless he lives in the buzz of his latest woman friend.

I have been so fortunate to have been educated by wonderful parents to secure a great professional
Role and specifically a mother who told me time and time again to never put myself in a situation that I couldn't get out of in ten mins flat.

Fortunate too that I found out about his inability to keep it in his trousers so could kick him out there and then.

To be able to parent my children in a safe warm and happy home by a mother , despite all her faults and failings, who is generally good enough has been my marker of success.
My eldest starts uni next week having suffered terribly with mental health issues since her Dad left and essentially stopped parenting , and having had 20% attendance at school after last few years.

That to me is success and I feel damn proud of it. My sons understand that relationship of any sort is about equality of love and effort.

Not.. me man, me work, me live my life as I please
You woman, you work, you also do all child raising, housework, house/ child admin.

I hope I've done enough to reverse their observations and experiences thusfar.

Good posts from @Thepeopleversuswork.

I have to take issue with the ‘we’re just doing as biology/evolution dictates’ stuff. Apart from the fact we are not just biology, we are also still living out the results of gendered social conditioning, It doesn’t map equally onto social judgments of men and women — tragic childless Jennifer Anniston vs freewheeling ‘can’t tie this down’ eternal bachelor George Clooney etc etc.

My DS’s class last year (aged 11) did a sort of illustrated yearbook of what they wanted to do/be when they grew up. No instructions or rules, just a blank sheet to write on and another to draw on, collected and bound into a book.

It’s a mixed-sex, secular, hippy-style, free and easy school (no uniform, call all teachers by their first names), very ethnically and socially mixed, with a high number of international kids (near hospital and university), so lots of different influences, cultures etc — very much not a homogenous population of 11 year olds.

BUT virtually every single one of the girls put into her future some mention of a partner/spouse and children (even if it was saying she wasn’t planning to have children, or in one case had an illustration of a wedding cake with two brides), and not one of the boys did. I went and looked.

Even in this progressive, mixed school with lots of different cultural influences and backgrounds, the girls had absorbed the idea, by the age of 11, that thinking about marriage or children should factor into their future, whereas the boys hadn’t.

Its a site called mumsnet its going to.attract people who.have or want to.have children
Obviously there are posters wgo.are single and child free by choice but im.guessing the majority are parents or people who.want to.be parents

I've never felt any urge to have children and so have no idea what that feels like.

I was born in the 1950s and can confirm that all my life I have been acutely aware of the constant social pressure to have children, and I have had many people pity me, commiserate with me, and yes, I have most definitely been considered to have failed in life. Some people have even treated me as a "weirdo" when I told them I have never wanted kids. I've had people exhibit pity in their eyes and by their tone, implying that my career, my hobby, even my cat, are some kind of "substitute" for not having children. I don't need their pity. I don't think my life would have been happier if I had had children and it certainly would have been made a LOT harder especially financially.

Now I am old I definitely wish I had a whole brood of adult offspring to help me, protect me and love me. I literally have nobody that I can trust or rely on 100%. But at the same time I know that it's a bit of a pipe dream because I have met SO MANY women whose children do not help, protect or love them, and who prove to be untrustworthy and who, when needed, are just not there.

Many older women who devoted their entire adult lives to a husband and children are now widows whose children live too far away to be of any help, and even some who live in the same town neglect them. Few people in their 40s and 50s include their widowed mum as a frequent participant in their social lives.

As someone upthread pointed out, if you have always been single and have learned to expect nothing from anyone, that's actually better than having expections of spending ones old age surrounded by your dear old husband and loving children, and then finding yourself a widow, lonely and neglected by the children you assumed would "look after you in your old age."

I think that when people are only ever exposed to one model of 'success' or one version of a relationship structure then they simply don't really know or understand that they can do something different if they so wish.

When I tell people I am ethically non-monogamous, for example, the first question is usually 'what's that?' and the second statement is almost always "I didn't know you could do that."

If we don't teach children and young people that there are alternatives to the standard relationship escalator, then we rely on them stumbling across that information themselves. Which they may never do.

Alternatives to the standard relationship escalator model of success should be taught to children at every level in school as part of PSHE education. Every time you teach a child that two people can fall in love, you should also teach them that adults can love more than one person and that it's also ok to not be in love with anyone.

And we should teach children that your partner(s) does not define your own success. Having a partner with a well-paid job, for example, does not mean that you personally are successful in your life. If we taught that the two things were not connected, perhaps we would see fewer situations where women are giving up their lives/careers without even really thinking about it to support their male partner in his career.

And maybe if we taught children all these things, people would stop fucking asking me why I bought a house at 38 that isn't big enough for a man to move into with me. 😂

@RobertaFirmino Thank you for posting this - very interesting and also quite reassuring! I don't have children myself and am an only child so will have no family when I am old. Something I worry about every day is being forgotten about and left to die all alone. It's good to hear that community and a sense of belonging can be found elsewhere.

I made it very clear to both of my parents in my early thirties that they should plan appropriately for any care they might need as they get older, potential end of life care, and let me know the decisions they have made so that I can make sure their wishes are followed. I also told them both they should prioritise financially planning for this rather than trying to leave me any inheritance.

I think it's very selfish to expect children to give up their lives in order to care for you as you get older. My father did it for his parents and it almost killed him.

I should add - I have a great relationship with both of my parents, but we don't talk very often and I only see them a few times a year. I moved away when I was young and have moved all over since. Now I'm chasing my career in a city about four hours away from each of them after being at uni for ten years. If something happens to them, they need to have contingency plans in place.

For me being single no kids, im very content. For me a successful life is one that is as happy as it can be where stress and drama is either zero or bare minimum.

I see my purpose is here to just explore this world, I dont know what happens when I die so my time here is limited and I want to go see all the beauty this planet has. Society only being created to manage the sheer number of us so instead of killing each other we can live together. Lets face it when there were a small number of humans alive all you had to deal with was finding food and surviving.

Time is the only thing u cannot buy, so I want all my days to be happy. I find being single and child free that I can achieve this 98% of the time.

I'm not worried about being alone when I'm older to be honest I want the choice to choose when I die, I dont want to suffer with things like dementia etc. I rather choose to say if I had it, well I had a nice long life and now I'd like to leave thanks. I saw my nan who recently pass away suffer, she was bed bound, restrict to her house for years..I dont see that a way I want to live thats just existing. She passed away in early hours with no family around her for her last moments as we weren't allowed to be there. She suffered in pain 12hrs until her body gave up. No thank you!

There's so many things to do that are fulfilling and fun and whilst I'm judged and I get it alot..why are you married and have a kid comments ..at least im not stressed out like the people who make thise comments are.

@SallyWD I know what you mean. As a single, childless woman it makes me feel shit because in some ways I feel I have failed my parents by not giving them the opportunity to come to my wedding or to have grandchildren. I know I am a decent and kind person but to me, it kind of seems irrelevant because I am seen as lacking somehow.
Also to the other poster, there is definitely a stigma around single and childless women. We haven't moved forward at all. It's really depressing.

Incorrect. The childfree board is there to serve the broader needs of users, many of whom are childfree.

Oh, and it's "fulfilled".

Regarding old age:

I think that as family sizes continue to shrink (more only children or no children) the market will respond with more solutions for elderly care. You see this now with luxury retirement villages cropping up. I have no children myself (through circumstance mainly) and I am also an only child so am facing old age (in 40 years or so) entirely alone. I will be honest, I have considered that it may be completely impossible and have thought about ways I might 'opt out' of life if need be. However, looking into services offered by retirement villages provides me with some hope. You can pay for just about everything you might need, including someone to accompany you to medical appointments. Of course it's a very expensive way to live, but I am saving for it and should be fortunate enough to be able to afford it. Also, as I don't have children, I am not bothered about leaving any inheritance - my money only has to last me for as long as I live.

In some ways I wonder if this might actually provide me with a 'safer' old age than those who are relying on children who may be unavailable / live far away / have their own problems.

I think everyone needs to plan old age as if they will be alone, regardless of their current circumstances.

It's scary though, I will definitely admit!

The idea that any life can be can be labelled as successful or unsuccessful is utterly absurd.

Who is anyone else to tell another human being that the life they have chosen is an unsuccessful one?

Who is anyone to respect or lose respect for others based on the relationships they have or don't have with other human beings. Or based on their ability to earn money in a certain way. Or based on their capacity to move their body around space?

Perhaps we should be teaching our children that how they feel about themselves is really all that matters so that unlike many, many, many people on this thread and in life, they don't care if people judge them for having children/not having children, working/not working etc.

Success should be measured daily. Did I get out of bed - woo hoo success. Did I do something physically hard - woo hoo success! Did I do something kind for someone - woo hoo success! The idea that anyone can have a successful life from birth to death is bullshit.

My dad told me recently he thinks my life is a mess. This is because i am not married with children. I have a very good job, completely self sufficient and a wonderful partner. My brothers both opted for the family route. My dads side of the family breed for England. My cousins have so many children, and their children have so many children, mostly state supported. That's me idea of hell and i have nothing to do with my cousins as we don't have anything in common.
He doesn't seem to care that i am extremely happy and have what i consider a wonderful life!

My mum never wanted children. she was coerced in to having them by my dad and his siblings. She's always been honest about this, but never took it out on us, we had an amazing childhood!

Luckily my mum supports me and my feelings about what i want/don't want so i can glaze over my dads old fashioned values.

Why bother about this. You do you. Comparison is the thief of joy. Happiness = success whatever your situation.

No it's blimmin not. If the woman has loads of assets and/or is the higher earner then she could get fleeced if the marriage ends.

And @Siameasy 's comment about procreation must be a wind up!

But this thread wasn’t about the ’drive’ or ’urge’ to have kids.
And human are mammals, but we have a thinking brain, so we can make choices, we’re not out of control in that way.

This was more why people are stilm put on a pedestal for status symbols (telationship, marriage,kids) and thise who don’t have it, by own choice or not, are still judged?
And seen as selfish, lazy, immature etc.
Why does this black and white thinking still happen?
It seemed like for few years things were getting better, but now we’re really going backwards and judgement is getting worse again.
Is the cycle?
The righ/conservitive/conventional side being on the rise again, and women must know their place yet again?

And being single doens’t mean total loneliness, do commenters like this just project their own fears here?
And yes, we may be social animals, some more, some less. But it doesn’t mean it HAS to be amatonormativity.

I don't think I know anyone who looks down on single women, or thinks of them as "less than." I am a long term singleton and certainly haven't experienced that.

I have observed people appearing to feel sympathetic to women who are childless, even when it seems to be by choice, but I am not sure that equates to looking down on them.

Maybe you should change your social circles OP?

I've suffered judgy comments from people about being single and without children. It's not that uncommon, I think you've just been lucky or not noticed.