‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

[Iftheydonlygetashifton]

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

Considering how often the poster is pregnant or TTC in these situations, it is unhelpful but natural to ask why you'd have a baby with a man like that.

It's perfectly acceptable and common to have babies with more than one partner these days. Finding a new partner and blending families may bring a new set of problems but that gamble is better than being trapped in the current situation. Life is short and children deserve loving and involved parents. Settling just increases the chance of your child repeating your mistake in the future.

When the topic of staying for the kids pops up, people with experience always say that they wish that their parents didn't do that and took a chance on being happy because it's a terrible burden.

it is unhelpful but natural to ask why you'd have a baby with a man like that.

If it's unhelpful, it doesn't matter if it's 'natural' (which I don't agree it is).

Instead you could post with advice about how to proceed, practical steps, emotional support.

How cruel to respond to a pregnant OP with 'why would you have a baby with him?'

It's perfectly acceptable and common to have babies with more than one partner these days

It is for some people. It isn't for me, for example. I would never ever get involved in a blended family situation.

The desire to have a strong family unit can be very central to many people, and this is a goal that's pursued, sometimes ill-advisedly.

You've hit the nail on the head there.

I read somewhere that victim blaming as a thought process stems from people distancing themselves from the possibility that life can just turn and bad things can happen randomly to anyone. The thought process is that if you try and find fault in someone's behaviour or situation then it's identifying the problem and reassuring yourself you're not daft enough to fall for that, whereas in reality we're all subject to luck/destiny/whatever to a degree.
I do read stuff here and find it really unsettling, so many horrible men out there and if life had just gone a bit differently I could easily have been married to one. It's just not enough to pat yourself on the back for your 'amazing' choices.

Hope things are better for you and sorry that you got that response all those years ago.

Sigh.

Yes things do change after you have a child. No OP isn't omniscient.

But generally this is asked when the partner has proven himself a useless sack of shit and then the OP is pregnant...again. Of course it's always a 'contraception failure'

Babies are not sticking plasters for shit relationships.

But generally this is asked when the partner has proven himself a useless sack of shit and then the OP is pregnant...again. Of course it's always a 'contraception failure'

Even so (and I disagree that this is 'generally' the case), how does it help?

How does asking that snide superior question help the OP in the situation she currently finds herself?

That's the point being made over & over on this thread, and people are missing it.

Forgot to add - these types of questions always come with the assumption that the woman has no agency in anything that happens in her life. Which irritates me. Just as there are feckless men, there are feckless women, and I think it does no one any good to pretend that there aren't.

Of course - I am not referring to women who are being abused.

Just as there are feckless men, there are feckless women, and I think it does no one any good to pretend that there aren't.

Sure. But to a great deal less, because ... biology. It's a lot harder to be a feckless mother than a feckless father. (But possible).

The women posting on MN for help in a difficult relationship (not necessarily abusive) are not likely to be feckless. They care, they are unhappy, they are in a concerning situation & they want support.

The question 'why did you have kids with him?' won't help.

@EarringsandLipstick it doesn't. Apart from the fact that it might help the person posting exercise some introspection and realise they have a hand in their own life?

Sometimes we have to hear hard truths about ourselves in order to grow and develop. I agree sometimes people are unnecessarily harsh (I've probably been on that end before I admit) but it is infuriating to read, over and over and over.

If I had a friend who continued having babies with a useless dickhead I'd have to take a step back and tell her at some point she needs to take responsibility for her own life.

You obviously don't agree that having unprotected sex KNOWING he's a useless man and father already, is feckless. I think it is.

Look, I get it, biological surges make the urge to have another baby overwhelming at times. But women need to hold themselves responsible for this and not do it when they KNOW, in their heart of hearts, that another baby isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to make it harder.

Right. But the OP is posting for help.

so what's the point in asking questions you agree are no help?

As for introspection, great - but that's not an example. Questions like 'what would you like to happen?' or details of the relationship, attempts at counselling, OP's work, money & family situation are also helpful.

Accusatory questions will not help, ever.

if you had a friend IRL like this, I hope you'd begin with compassion, rather than thinking your 'straight talking' would sort everything.

The person posting has already realised something isn't right hence posting for help or advice.

What is remotely helpful about then putting them off posting further by being snide and superior?

It's akin to asking someone who has just been hit by a bus why they didn't look harder - absolute waste of time.

You obviously don't agree that having unprotected sex KNOWING he's a useless man and father already, is feckless. I think it is.

That's not what I said.

I said someone posting on MN for help is unlikely to be feckless at that point, given they are actively seeking help.

And if they got pregnant ill-advisedly, again, sneering at them with that question won't help

As for the 'why' they did it, again, these matters are complex, especially when a woman is not making decisions from a place of agency and self-esteem.

It still is not going to help to ask 'why' after the event (and also, the very nature of posts like yours is why women say it was accidental - they can't or don't feel able to talk about the underlying insecurities they felt that led to getting pregnant).

I really hope your own life has no such challenges or vulnerabilities that lead to poor decision-making.

It's akin to asking someone who has just been hit by a bus why they didn't look harder - absolute waste of time.

Great analogy!

It doesn't make any difference whether you think they've been feckless or not.

It's about your motivation in posting now. Do you want to kick them down, or help?

If it's 'kick them down, this is on them, they deserve no better' then totally crack on.

Otherwise there are much, much more constructive ways of helping the OP in their current situation and helping them to determine how to change their behaviours for the future.

Selfishness. I just sigh when I see someone on here with multiple kids or pregnant with number 2 or 3.

After 1 child you will definitely see the red flags.

I can see it from both angles, whilst I'm sure there are cases where men have substantially changed after children are born I strongly suspect in most cases either negative behaviours were ignored prior to pregnancy or the female also was engaging in them so it wasn't an issue eg heavy drinking, recreational drugs and partying until late - 3 frequent complaints. I would also add that in some cases the op has multiple kids, 3+ despite their frustration believing he will change ... spoiler alert, they rarely do!

I think we should expect a lot from our partners but we need to choose wisely too, eg if they have already left one or more woman with small kids don't be surprised when they have another affair!

I really hope your own life has no such challenges or vulnerabilities that lead to poor decision-making

I've made loads of shit decisions in my time. Absolutely loads. I'm a human being. And I might have even come on here and moaned about them. No one is obligated to be kind to me all the time, if they want to point out what a stupid thing that was to do, then they can. And of course I'd start with compassion with a friend. By the second or third kid I might have something to say. Probably in real life as I'd know the person I'd choose my words very carefully.

I'm not saying it's necessarily helpful to the OP.

*You obviously don't agree that having unprotected sex KNOWING he's a useless man and father already, is feckless. I think it is.

That's not what I said.

I said someone posting on MN for help is unlikely to be feckless at that point, given they are actively seeking help*

No, that's what I meant when I said feckless. Why would I think posting on here would be feckless?

Another who couldn't be bothered to RTFT.

What an appropriate username too.

Do you ever think that posting such drivel with no basis could be upsetting for those of us who have experienced the opposite? And know this to be untrue?

There is constructive practical advice which is needed in the moment, I agree.

But Mumsnet is a huge public forum and threads don't exist in a vacuum. The wider discussion where people give different perspectives and consider the backdrop which has led to the thread can be really helpful to other women. Maybe they're considering having a baby with someone where there are already red flags, where the man is lazy or doesn't value her. Maybe they're in a pretty poor relationship but considering a second baby. Maybe they're still at the dating stage and it's helpful to discuss, reflect. Life is all about reflecting on our own and other peoples' situations and learning from it.

And it's no good saying 'start a completely separate thread purely to discuss it' because life doesn't work like that. People are drawn to situations where they might see themselves perhaps in the future.

So yeah, practical steps for the poster who's in a shit situation but discussion and reflection on how these situations come about can be helpful for the hundreds of other people on a public forum

I do find it interesting that it really only seems to be these types of posts where everyone is advocating Be Kind and not the sort of more...robust conversation.

It's not helpful. No statement like that is. But most people use this forum as a sounding board, a place for anonymous conversation. They don't use it expecting a counselling sessions.

And to be abundantly clear, I think we all know we're referring to the "my boyfriend has never had a job, smokes weed, has never changed the baby's nappy and now I'm pregnant again, AIBU to give him an ultimatum" type posts.

Not "good man decides to turn into a shitheel the second the baby is born" type posts.

@ChiefWiggumsBoy

You are misreading my posts.

I didn't ask if you'd made shit decisions. I said I hoped you didn't face vulnerabilities or certain circumstances that led you to making less advisable choices - trying to make the point that your definition of 'feckless' women being silly with contraception is often borne out of a situation they cannot manage, whether that's a coercive relationship, an unhappy one they can't see an alternative to or a poor understanding of what a good relationship looks like.

Also regarding 'feckless'. My point is when the poster is posting, she's the definition of not being feckless. Your judgment on her past fecklessness, as you see it, is irrelevant.

She's looking for help. Not a kicking. 'Why did you have children with him?' is a kicking & nothing else.

So yeah, practical steps for the poster who's in a shit situation but discussion and reflection on how these situations come about can be helpful for the hundreds of other people on a public forum

Ok 🙄

So as part of helping OP on such a thread, post something along the lines of 'more generally, it is a good idea if ... ' followed by your enlightening advice.

There is no getting around saying 'why did you have a baby with him?' to an OP in crisis is nasty, judgey & pointless. It's not going to help OP or any other reader

The lengths some people go to justify this.

What?

I read this twice but still don't understand it.

For clarity, there's no 'Be Kind' (grimaces) element here.

The OP is not looking for counselling. They might very well be looking for robust advice.

But the 'why did you' question is not advice. It's just judgment.