‘Why did you have a baby with him?’

[Iftheydonlygetashifton]

Inspired by the numerous threads on MN where the OP is in a very tough situation with kids and an abusive partner, and the responses run ‘why on Earth did you choose to have children with him? You were with him for 3 years before children’ … etc etc. My thoughts are:

a) the OP isn’t omniscient;
b) many relationships change after having kids. Often having kids exposes men to be man-children. Hence, all the single mums out there and the many fewer single dads. And the mental burden disproportionately borne by women in hetero relationships even if both do paid work FT, etc.
c) Give the OP a break.

YABU - people don’t change substantially after having kids therefore it’s on the OP if they chose a wrong un.
YANBU - people can change after kids, relationships deteriorate, we should lay off a pile-on and give practical advice and moral support.

thanks

In their minds it’s all justified - my STBXH describes his adultery partner’s STBXH as “controlling and manipulative”, with a completely straight face, despite displaying these traits in his own behaviours. Staggering lack of self awareness. But I’m going off track here.

I agree with this, and I always think that people ascribe deliberate intentions to control and manipulate to abusive men.

I think it's a bit more insidious than that. I think that during the love-bombing phase, these men aren't thinking "haha, she'll fall for this then I can start abusing her", it's more like "finally, a woman who isn't like all those other bitches, I'll shower her with affection", which later becomes "ungrateful bitch who didn't appreciate everything I did" to "she deserved it because she gives me such a hard time".

Part of the reason it's so believable to women is that the men themselves totally believe it.

@Didsomeonesaydogs it was my lived experience too 🙁What you've described about finding the joy and putting on a brave face is also so familiar to me - as is arguing with counsellors to insist that no, really, I was equally if not more at fault for the hole in the wall, for failing to manage his moods

The penny only truly dropped for me when a Relate counsellor communicated extremely sensitively after a few sessions that in our situation it would not be appropriate to continue with joint relationship counselling. Relate can get a bad rap on here, but that moment was life changing and possibly life saving for me, and I will forever be grateful for it.

My ex and I discussed at length how we would care for our baby for years before we tried for a child, he was dead set on being an equal parent and caring for me. When our baby was born via emergency c section he refused to help care for him and became abusive towards me to the point I had to leave everything behind before he followed through on his threats to kill me.

It’s quite telling that not a single poster has said “I was asked that and it was the lightbulb/made me reflect”

And that’s despite lots of people who’ve left abusive and difficult relationships posting on the thread (all saying it’s not helpful).

Yet none of those determined it’s a good question to ask seem to be noticing or acknowledging that.

You have no idea of what experiences I have of relationships and it is insulting for you to claim you do. If you don't like my perspective, then feel free to scroll on past and not quote me.

@DaaamnYoullDo - exactly- lots of men talk the talk but don't walk the walk when reality creeps in

@thecatsthecats I agree with you- people always say on here - oh it's deliberate behaviour- I really don't think it is with some, I think if you have shown you will put up with shit at various points and not left it just becomes normalised to them and part of the day to day 'vibe' - my H once said to me 'problem is you internalise stress and frustrations, I externalise them' - that was indeed the case, but it can be very wearing to live with an externaliser- I genuinely don't think he was trying to piss me off or control - it had simply become part of his personality over the years- people do change.

A bit of both. Ultimately, all the choices and decisions we make have consequences. Once we face these consequences, we've got to accept some responsibilities for having made those choices.

At the same time, things do change and couldn't be predicted.

And then there is a bit of bad planning and bad luck.

I do think there are a number of women who make obvious bad decisions but the call for a baby or more makes then turn a blind eyes to the almost inevitable consequences that are bound to show up later.

When people use the identical justification to rebut people contributing, yes it is linked - especially where the question is why did you have 1/2/3 children with anyone on a site called Mumsnet.

I didn't understand this at all, sorry. I can't work out the point you are making.

Snidely asking someone why they had children with an abusive / unpleasant partner never helps.

Saying that you choose to limit your family to afford a certain lifestyle is simply recounting your experience and not challenging another's 🤷🏻‍♀️

Great point.

You have no idea of what experiences I have of relationships and it is insulting for you to claim you do. If you don't like my perspective, then feel free to scroll on past and not quote me.

If you have had an abusive relationship, it's even more shocking that you have posted such inaccurate information.

It's insulting that you are so unprepared to hear others viewpoints who have lived experience oh abuse.

And it's a forum - replying to others is literally how it works. HTH

@Cantstaystuckforever @Didsomeonesaydogs

Both your posts resonate so strongly with me - I am glad to see you have got out of your respective relationships.

I am currently trying to extricate myself from my marriage. I can't quite bring myself to use the word abusive yet.

But the support I am getting is helping me to see that what I have normalised is pretty close to abuse.

Someone saying to me 'why did you have kids with him?' would categorically not be helpful . What would it achieve? Would they feel better to have me flagellate myself in front of them?

Believe me, I feel guilt ridden and full of intense regret as it is.

Even if all the signs were there, and OP wilfully ignored them; even if she deliberately made stupid decisions; that only means - worst case - that OP is an idiot. It doesn't mean that she and her children doesn't deserve help!

"Why did you (etc)" really means "There is strong evidence you are an idiot." Nobody writes that because they can't pretend it's words of wisdom. But it's just exactly as mean and unhelpful.

It's just a way to score points off the OP.

@TheEponymousGrub

I agree - and the thing is, many of the women we are talking about have made idiotic decisions. I have!

And posting on mumsnet means they are starting to understand that.

They need encouragement, not more criticism

I have listened to alll other points on this thread.

Have you? No way to know that as you have ignored everyone's point while continuing to reiterate unhelpful nonsense about abusive relationships.

'unprepared to hear others viewpoints' yet you are happy to dismiss mine with derision. Hypocrite.

Don't insult me - it's actually against Talk guidelines.
Having views is fine; the assumptions you are making about how women find themselves in challenging situations are not - I know, as do others, because I've lived it.

Dear me, you clearly don't get it.

How a forum works? I really think I do! 😂

I'm bowing out now. Ciao!

Great news 👋

🙄

Because in the main ii believe that many women don't give enough time
And consideration to deciding to ttc with someone , far more to things like buying a house or marriage .
In my mind . You're choosing a father for your child for life. There is literally no bigger decision in the world and I wish everyone would see it that way.

Great username 😏

So trivialising. Of course many women who end up in abusive or unhappy marriages, with DC, have given plenty of thought to who they marry (see my earlier posts). They go with the information and beliefs that they have. Unfortunately it doesn't always equate to what happens in the longer-term.

We don't all have 🔮 you know.

Crazy crazy, indeed.

There was a thread recently where the OP was asking whether she should have a 2nd child with a husband who had already clearly checked out after having the first child.

That's the kind of example I mean where the woman is being selfish on the existing child. Unbelievably, there were people on there telling her to have the 2nd child then leave the guy.

@Tinklyheadtilt , if the woman wants another child, it sort of makes sense to have the same father for both siblings, even if he will not be around.

This is if the alternative is to leave the husband and pair off with someone else quickly, conceive quickly.

It's far from ideal.

@EarringsandLipstick but I don't think @Crazycrazylady is crazy at all. You see it on here , women who are pregnant (and totally fine with it) who have known someone literally a couple of months. I realise it can be a total accident but it often doesn't seem as if that's the case. I found myself in that situation once before ( I was on the pill) when I had only known my now H 7 weeks- I terminated in my early 30s, simply because I didn't know him 'enough' - some women simply don't seem to feel that need to know someone in great depth before getting pregnant repeatedly

@DuchessOfSausage or another alternative is to think about the well-being of potential children rather than selfishly having another child just because the woman wants another baby

I know a woman, let's call her A, who is incapable of being single. She's in love one minute, then he ends it, she mopes for 48 hours and by the end of the following weekend she's head over heels with someone else.

Almost all of her boyfriends are the type of men who would be described as "fuckboys", who don't treat her particularly well - although to be fair, she's a nightmare and few would have the patience.

We're not as close as we once were but she now has a baby and the dad isn't around. I'm not convinced I know who the dad is.

I remember a few years ago, another friend - an intelligent, successful woman (B) - ended up having lunch (it wasn't plannned) with a male friend - they had liked each other for years, both knew it but lived in different cities and had completely different lives. There was no way anything was going to happen between them, and they split the bill. I think splitting the bill was symbolic of how it wasn't a "date" as such and more two friends catching up.

A heard about this, and started asking for all the details. When she found out they paid for their own meals, she was horrified. She said she wouldn't give him the time of day again, really turned on him and said she wouldn't dream about seeing him again if she was B, if he wasn't prepared to pay for her. I think she caused B to doubt herself a bit.

B later made a comment to me in private that she would rather a boyfriend who split the bill than one who pays for her but treats her like A's boyfriends do.

It's always stuck with me and I think it demonstrates how some women have their priorities all wrong.