Mrs and Mr Smith

[Oysterbabe]

When I write client letters I always put the woman's name first in the address and write
Dear Mrs & Mr Smith. The letters have to be checked before posting and my boss always swaps the names back because 'it doesn't flow properly'
AIBU for always writing the woman's name first?

Kind of?

I find it totally depressing that women continue to perpetuate it by calling themselves Miss then Mrs rather than insisting on Ms or something similarly neutral, but patriarchal ideology has been successful to the extent that a lot of women do still see it as a status symbol to be married and they want it clearly marked that they are and not one of those nasty spinsters

Sure I’ll get a realm of answers saying ‘that’s not the reason I just want to celebrate my love for my husband’, but maybe ask yourself why it is he feels able to celebrate his love for you without needing to mark himself with a special title

My apologies as it was 3am when I posted, it’s not conventionally correct.

Wow, all those straw men are a blooming fire hazard in this heat.

I never said, implied nor even thought that women who change their names are "oppressed". It is not my opinion that they are. Nor did I say women shouldn't change their names even if they want to. Go ahead, knock yourselves out.

I said that women who do are influenced by convention/culture/expectation, and as it is a choice not forced upon men, it is a difference worth examining (from a sociological/feminist point of view.)

I won't bang on again about the reasons for your choice, as you're adamant that you won't give them, but consider this: why didn't your husband change his name on marriage?

So bizarre how many people are trying to claim that the supposed 'flow' is based on anything but being very, very used to it being that (patriarchal) way around.

It is 'correct' by convention, not by any kind of logic. Conventions change, and that starts with people going 'Hang on, we don't actually have to do this any more'. I've never addressed something to Mrs and Mr, but I think I will next time!

My apologies as it was 3am when I posted, it’s not conventionally correct.

And that's a different matter entirely. There are many things that in the past were deemed 'conventionally correct' which have been discarded now. Times change, why get hung up on sticking to old fashioned conventions which add precisely nothing to the comprehensibility or civility of communication?

A question in good faith here.

Whats the point in getting married at all? If you’re truly against the patriarchy you’d be against marriage because it was a way of moving women from the property of the father to the husband. Or am I misunderstanding here?

Good faith answer- marriage is a legal contract. It can be something else too, if you want, but the contract part is the non optional bit. Well unless you have a purely ceremonial wedding I suppose, but that's unusual.

But the existence of that contract is significant. Being married puts you in a different legal and financial situation to not being married. If you consider that contract to be beneficial to you, and it will be to the majority of women (not all) then it would be a logic fail to be against the contract that offers you the best protection because of patriarchy. Patriarchy adores it when women don't have legal protection and are easier to exploit.

There are lots of institutions that have appalling misogynistic histories, but most of us wouldn't think it sensible not to take a degree at older institutions, vote or enter a profession purely because of that.

The key word in your post is "was". Marriage has moved on, and is now a legal partnership of equals, freely entered into. It gives certain protections to spouses and children.

Where it's not freely entered into, well that's a different matter.

People will make assumptions about you being single, married, divorced, whichever title you choose. They may be wrong, but it's something men simply don't have to go through with just Mr. And women do get judged for those titles, too. And for changing their name on marriage and all of it.

Maybe I’m living in cloud cuckoo land

but I didn’t feel “judged” when I was single nor married and not do I now that I’m divorced 🤷‍♀️

I think this is an unfortunate truth. We don't have a truly neutral title available to us as men do. One of the many reasons I do all I can to avoid using them, even in professional contexts.

but I didn’t feel “judged” when I was single nor married and not do I now that I’m divorced

You just have to look back at this thread, or any of the frequent ones on titles.

I prefer not to use any title, but that is far too frequently a choice denied me by online forms. Sometimes you don’t even get the full range of Mrs, Ms, Miss, so my preferred second optionmay not be there. Men may not have had the option of Lord or Sir or something, but I bet if a form has a compulsory title field, they have always had the option of Mr.

Ms is neutral

I used it when married and now that I’m divorced

I took my husband’s surname and I kept it post divorce but always Ms

No, I think it's simply the case that we all have different experiences. These may depend on your age, what you do etc. Some old attitudes and prejudices are hopefully dying out.

You would be sacked if you carried on doing this with our client letters. You know fine well the norm and wether it's liked or not that's how it is.

Ms isn't neutral, though. It ought to be, but there are those (of my mother's generation) who think only divorced women use it, and others who think you’re one of those difficult feminist types. Or that you're difficult because they're not sure how to prounce it. There isn't a female title that is baggage-free as Mr is.

But what of the men who want to be judged, who want every envelope to say I'm happily married to a wonderful woman (or man) and want the world to know or more likely I'm single and available for your pleasure tonight.

Women lose out in many ways but having a number of titles to choose from is not one of them.

If men were losing out, they'd have fixed it.

If you wanted a 'matching surname'with your husband, why didn't he take yours?

Women lose out in many ways but having a number of titles to choose from is not one of them.

It is. It may not be a major one, but is one of the ways.

Extensive legal and financial protection for me and my children (and my husband).

Conveniently now available without any of the patriarchal baggage

He did.

Was that yours and your husband’s sole and only reason for marrying?

It's not 'wrong'.

Neither is it feminist.

It's a choice to perpetuate patriarchal traditions. That's not 'wrong'. It's just choosing to support a system which diminishes and infantilises women.