To think the gender and sex Ed wars are created by tories

[Unexpectedlysinglemum]

The tories have totally messed up the country recently I think that people who did or didn't vote for them can see they are doing an awful job and they have no reasonable expectation of winning next general election..... EXCEPT now the Tory press has created this total obsession about

1. Sex education and
2. Gender and trans issues.

They are painting them selves as the only party that will save us from the wokes who want to identify as a dog or teach 12 year olds how to have anal sex... this is what the Tory tabloids are claiming is happening in schools.

What does everyone think?

So when you said

I used to be gender critical myself before I came out so no, it's not that. I just really don't agree with the movement anymore

What is it that you don't agree with?

I actually do agree with both of those things,

But they don't seem to bother you much? Do you think these problems just exists on Twitter and don't exist or do any damage in the real world?

I tune out of it now

So it doesn't affect you or anyone you care about in the real world? Not all of us are so fortunate.

Do you mind, less of the "gender crits".

And do you deny that the "bad stuff" is happening?

It is happening, and it needs to stop.

Women need privacy, dignity and safety, they need single sex spaces which are being invaded and taken away. Children and teenagers need to be safe from ideologically driven, harmful medical interventions that are already happening.

Sounds pretty terfy there to me. Careful!

'Gender crits'?

Funny that it was another poster the other day calling women who disagreed with gender ideology 'gender critters'. As in animals.

Pure misogyny.

Is “I used to be gender critical” the new “I am as gender critical as they come but”?

Nope, it's the anticipated rolling back from the extremist TRA demands of the past few years and refraining GC into something other than what we were actually saying. So the narrative becomes "we were never asking for stuff like no single sex provisions, medicalising kids, TW in lesbian spaces, rape support groups or female prisons! That was all nasty hysteria from the Gender Critters! In fact, this whole culture war was their fault for making such crazy accusations!"

It's bloody annoying, but I just take a deep breath and remember the important thing is we get where GC needs to be, not whether GC people are validated.

It's all relative, isn't it? Do you care about the problems of trans people, the deep trauma they've experienced and continue to experience etc? Probably not, so I could easily turn that back and say ahh you're so fortunate.
Many, many things are problems that vary in importance and relevance from one person to the next. For example I'm pro decriminalisation of drugs but I don't expect everyone to hold that as importantly as I do... I like reading these threads as like I say, I have followed the debate for ages and I offer my opinion where I feel I want to.
My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically... amongst other things.

Do you care about the problems of trans people, the deep trauma they've experienced and continue to experience etc?

Oh yes, very much so, probably at least as much as you do. That's why it matters so much that we don't this to children. We don't risk adding trauma to children. So we avoid "strong recommendations based on weak evidence".

My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically... amongst other things.

Eh? There is no gender critical movement ( I assume that's what you're referring to) in the same way there is no 'the sky is blue movement' or 'rain is wet' movement because the majority of people (no matter who they like to vote for) who know what a man and what a woman is and don't buy the 78 genders/a woman's penis etc nonsense.

This

I read a lot of biographies of adult trans people. They never hide the homophobic upbringings, the restrictive stereotypes and sexist expectations, the bullying from parents and peers.

I don't doubt the trauma experienced by many.

But I think it's more important to tackle the root of the trauma and promote acceptance of gay children, autistic children and children who do not fit stereotypes, rather than reifying these abusive upbringings as some inevitable right of passage on the path to a trans identity.

Do you care about the problems of trans people, the deep trauma they've experienced and continue to experience etc?

Most of that deep trauma existed before they decided they had gender issue and have been proven continue post transition. This is what happens when the MH aspect of ASD isn’t recognised or treated properly (especially before puberty). Transitioning is like placing a plaster over a bullet hole in terms of ‘fixing’a ND’s persons identity issues, but unfortunately most people don’t understand this and think supporting transitioning is the kindest as most ‘life saving’ thing to do. It’s those with little understanding of ASD = Identity Displacement that really haven’t got a clue what they’re ‘supporting’ with adolescents who believe they’re trans. All they’re doing is applauding their mental distress from over masking and lost of identity through masking like they’ve discovered their ‘true self’.

@begaydocrime42 What made you decide to "come out"? We all know that many who label themselves as trans have had difficult childhoods with a disproportionate number who have been in care. Some have experienced sexual abuse, others homophobia (including internalised homophobis), or mental illness. So yes, we do feel for these poor children being misled into damaging their health. Some adults have a sexual fetish and if they are not encouraging children to transition I feel some sympathy for their distress too. I have no fucks left to give for people who encourage homosexual conversion therapy under the guise of "helping" children.

My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically... amongst other things.

Do you not think that's a bit of a flabby reason? There isn't a single "gender critical" movement; there have always been rightwing and liberal/leftwing elements on both sides of the argument. Yes there's a rightwing movement against transition which is also against any kind of gender non-conforming behaviour; but equally the "wrong body" narrative has always been favoured by some rightwing and homophobic people who are in favour of transition if it measn they can have a heterosexual son (or daughter) instead of a lesbian daughter (or a gay son)

Some of the most vigorous whistleblowers against the unquestioning transition of children have been lesbians and gay men afraid of what is being done for no good reason, to an increasing proportion of children who would otherwise grow up attracted to the same sex and comfortable in their own unaltered bodies.

One reason why the right has been strong on this is because the liberal left turned their backs on women, most especially in America. The ACLU chose to defend the right of rapists to be in women's prisons against the rights of female prisoners not to be raped in prison. In the UK there are liberal and feminist law groups who will take on these discrimination cases on behalf of women. In the US there are none and the only way to fnd someone to defend women's rights to single-sex space is through rightwing (often Christian) organisations. That's the fault of the left.

Yes which is why children should be encouraged to accept their healthy bodies via counselling etc rather than becoming sterilised life long pharma clients.

I also care more about vulnerable women than I do about dysphoric or AGP males.

My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically... amongst other things.

Could you expand on that at all? What elements of the GC position (there really isn't a GC movement as such) do you think are really right wing?

As it just sounds a lot like 'TERFS are funded by the Christian right', which is a common accusation made against GC women in the UK where it has no basis. There is no Christian right in the UK.

My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically... amongst other things.
I agree with this. It used to be that radical feminists were the majority of the GC posters on here, they tend to be a left wing bunch.
Now there are a lot more people who have found the GC movement and it chimes with them because they are religious and believe God created men and women to fulfil roles so a male can't be a woman. Or they are very conservative and think the same. Or they believe men and women evolved to be different and therefore should stay in their lane.

The radfem position is there is no gender and people shouldn't be stereotyped into gender roles because of their sex.

The conservative (not political Conservative voter) position is that stereotypes matter and women should comply with the stereotypes associated with their sex.

I've noticed a lot more of the latter on here. And they tend to have a load of other associated unpleasant views or think weird things, like Suella Braverman deserves voting for because she's not woke.

As an old school feminist it is very off-putting.

My issue with the movement is, the movement went in a really right wing direction basically

Why don’t you ask where the left are on this?

Where is the left leaning media? Is it captured or pro women

If not the latter, then why?

Plus left politics

How are SNP and Welsh Labour, plus NZ, Canada and probably others

Are they captured or pro women?

Why is that do you think?

@begaydocrime42

Do you care about the problems of trans people, the deep trauma they've experienced and continue to experience etc?

I'm interested in this point. Are you talking about caring that a subset of trans people suffer trauma, just as a subset of any group will sadly suffer trauma, but trans people are less supported when they do, or are you suggesting there is a specific deep trauma that is an intrinsic part of being trans and will be experienced by all trans people?

If the latter, is this trauma that comes from within the trans person, for example the trauma of continously feeling a mismatch with your own body or of understanding society will never see you are you really are because of your body, something that might be managed or reduced by physical and social transition but can never not exist, or are you thinking of trauma from outside that is inflicted by other people who subject the trans person to rejection, violance, mental or sexual abuse and prejudice simply because they are visibily trans , something that would entirely not exist if society accepted trans people's social transiton in every way?

Munro Berdorf has written about being an effeminate gay boy hated by his father. You can’t help wonder if that was part of seeking to become a trans woman. "I didn’t really have a place because I was too girly for the boys and I wasn’t a girl – or seen as a girl. So I was ostracised, and the ostracism never stopped until I left high school.” Her own family struggled with her sexuality"

Do you care about the problems of trans people, the deep trauma they've experienced and continue to experience etc?

why yes, yes we do. Which is mainly why we want to prevent children from transitioning. If an adult wants to, we have no issue with that. Children are a whole different matter.
And yet still, child or adult should know they never can become the opposite sex only a simulacrum.

Theres this entire board full of people who care about others. It's like people only see what they wish to see.

I don't really understand this.

These people are by definition NOT gender critical, so why would it put you off being so? It's easy to distinguish yourself from people who are wedded to gender stereotypes!

There isn't an organised 'movement' by any means. There are groups of people with different aims, opinions and methods. You don't have to align with all or any of them.

And I honestly think a hell of a lot of issues could be resolved by people just being trans and proud of that, rather than trying to convince the world to accept you as the opposite sex.

You can't control people's perceptions of you, and nor should you try to. And you can't rely on that to make yourself feel better.

This. And given one in four (at least) girls/women will be victims of sexual abuse, unrestricted male access to females via gender self-identification is a horrific prospect.